Originally Posted by gdm27 (Post 787059)

Those the same monkey steps at the end of Perth st?

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 787107)

As he's talking about "Manny Road", I'm assuming that he means somewhere up Manchester Road, although I can't think where. Thought those steps at the end of Perth Street were called the Donkey Steps?

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 787107)

As he's talking about "Manny Road", I'm assuming that he means somewhere up Manchester Road, although I can't think where. Thought those steps at the end of Perth Street were called the Donkey Steps?

Originally Posted by Atarah (Post 787270)

According to an old newspaper article, "Bank Steps were the steps that led from Manchester Road to the old fold of houses constituting Woolhurst Bank". In Christ Church Vicarage grounds is the old pump which formed one of the sources of water supply for the inhabitants.
(The Vicarage was once the big house you can see in the 2nd photo, although it has not been the vicarage for many many years). The fold consisted of a substantial farmhouse, the old homestead of the Haworths, and several cottages. In ancient times it would be quite a busy centre as three of the old roads entered into it. Anyone who came from the direction of the old King's Highway which crossed Black Moss would come down Sandy Lane, one of our most ancient roads, which was in existence in the 12th Century, passing High Riley and Broad Oak Fold on the way. The road entered into Woolhurst Bank.
Woolhurst Bank is a name no longer known by todays generation. Another road from the old fold passed down Adelaide Street to the old bridge across the stream, in what was Syke Street, opposite the old Black Dog.

(no comment from Retlaw please, I am only quoting what an old newspaper from 1917 said!)

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 787484)

.............but still no answer. Why are they called Monkey Steps? Will this be speculation or is there any substance in the form of doicumentation of whatever sort behind this?

Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 787531)

Thwaites St and Lancaster St Ossy, are in a triangle bounded by Vine Mill and New Lane.
My dad was raised on nearby Stanley St and always referred to the area on that other side of New Lane as 'back o' John Harroths', and inferred that a 'rough lot' lived there.
Someone named John Haworth must have had connections there.

Most colloquial names fade into folk memory and are lost.

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 787490)

NO, they have been called Monkey Steps as long as I've lived, not every thing gets properly documented, you'll just have to accept that although their correct name was Bank Steps, they are the Monkey Steps. Local names by Local people.
Take Bunny's back for example, its proper name was back Birtwistle St, but Bunny lived in the 1st house and kept his donkey and cart in a stable in the back. You also have a local name for another part of Birtwistle St, it was nicknamed Pinch Belly Row.

Retlaw.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 787579)

So not even a theory? If Bunny's was named after a character in the first house on back Birtwhistle St - and we can all think of similar examples - then somewhere in the distant past there has to be some reason for the naming of this particular spot. Surely someone can come up with some speculative theory - be it relating to the layout of these steps, the proximity of nearby trees, a corruption of another descriptive word or whatever - so is it not worth talking about?

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 787584)

OK....one interseting point, though. After I made my last post I looked at Atarah's piccy's (which I had previously missed). There appears to be three different sorts of brickwork/stonework by the step's exit....any theory why?

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 787107)

As he's talking about "Manny Road", I'm assuming that he means somewhere up Manchester Road, although I can't think where. Thought those steps at the end of Perth Street were called the Donkey Steps?

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 787581)

Tha clutchin at straws if tha tryin to meck sense o nicknames, un them us gi id thad name are long gone, gioer fratchin n just accept ids calld Munky Steps.
Its like Cockney Rhyming slang it was in use for donkeys years before it was writen down, who knows who started that, I know why, but who ?.

Retlaw.

Originally Posted by katex (Post 787668)

Hi Lurch,

But stories are passed on from generation to generation aren't they... maybe with a few additions though .. LOL.

I've never been up them ... how far do/did they go up then .. was it just the few steps as in Atarah's 'photo ? Yes . does appear so in your map .. before you tell me to go to Specsavers (or did you draw them in) .. :D

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 787669)

Hi Snakehead.
Aye gu tu specsavers then luk ad post 4, idl tel thi wur thi gu too.

Retlaw.

Originally Posted by katex (Post 787671)

Yes, I can see that :p.. was just querying whether there were more steps 'then' than there is 'now'.

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 787675)

I've given up on thee, why the ell would anybody need to add or remove them steps, they've bin there oer 160 years. Ged on wi thi knittin un mek anuther cardigan.

Retlaw

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 787723)

Although not from the area, I still find local History interesting, & the thing about your "steps" being called Monkey, could it be a corruption of maybe Manky or Money ? Would that in any way fit into your local History. Or maybe in a Military sense as in Brass Monkey (Holder for cannon balls)? like a local artillery unit City defence or some such ? Probably way off the mark but just maybe ? Then there's religion Monks ? or as I've just looked the old steps leading onto trams & Buses & the like where conductors stood were called Monkey boards ?

Originally Posted by katex (Post 787738)

Mmmm . there all food for thought Dave. They may have been 'manky' .. meaning grim and dirty, and evolved to monkey.

Monks ... weren't any then when these were built.

As for the cannon theory ... reckon Retlaw will soon be back shooting you down on this one ... :D

Originally Posted by katex (Post 787738)

Mmmm . there all food for thought Dave. They may have been 'manky' .. meaning grim and dirty, and evolved to monkey.

Monks ... weren't any then when these were built.

As for the cannon theory ... reckon Retlaw will soon be back shooting you down on this one ... :D

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 787789)

. Also brass monkeys have nowt to do with cannon balls.....

Retlaw..

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 787855)

Agreed that brass monkeys have nowt to do with cannonballs (I'm amazed that the myth still persists). However, Powder Monkeys do have everything to do with cannonballs - men as well as boys running and carrying supplies from the magazines below decks to the gunnnery crews on the decks above. There probably would have been a hundred or so of them involved on a major warship such as HMS Victory.

I'm quite sure that if these steps attracted young lads to fool around on some 160 years ago someone no doubt would have drawn a similarity to activity aboard a Nelsonian or later ship and hence conferred such a sobriquet.

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 787873)

The myth still persist because of Hollywood, showing pyramids of cannon balls on the main deck.
Cannon balls were kept in racks next to the guns on the gun decks, three men manned each gun. .....whilst the powder monkeys (young boys because of confined spaces) are continually coming up through the hatches from the magazine delivering more charges.
Retlaw.

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 787873)

.
Cannon balls were kept in racks next to the guns on the gun decks, three men manned each gun. .......whilst the powder monkeys (young boys because of confined spaces) are continually coming up through the hatches from the magazine delivering more charges.
Retlaw.

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 790118)

I was told of Bunny and his donkey just after I left school and started work, the story ran that one day Bunny turned up at the Market minus donkey and when he was asked why he is said to have replied 'Ahh dunno, Ahh jus geet it used to not eatin an it deed on mi.'

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 790142)

A couple of pictures of Alfred (Bunny) Barnes.
He use to appear on the Stage at Accy Hippodrome with his donkey which wore boxing gloves, and pretend to box with it.

Theres also a tale of Bunny coming down Manchester Rd one night with his donkey cart, when he spots a copper, so he unharnessed the donkey and put it on the cart and took up the shafts and carried on. Copper stopped and said where's the lamp Bunny, (you were supposed to have a lamp hanging on the back end of carts)
Bunny replied don't ask me ask the driver.

Retlaw.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 790301)

I have another theory as to the origin of the 'Monkey Steps'.

As many of you are aware, Hartlepool have a football team in the league whose nickname is the 'Monkey Hangers'. While this may, on the face of it, appear rather a derogatory term, most residents of that town are rather proud of the label. The origin goes back to the Napoleonic Wars and the wrecking of a French ship on the rocks by the town. The only survivor from the incident was the ships monkey, whom the local townsfolk - not being the most intelligent of people - took to be a Frenchman, and a spy to boot. After rigourus interrogation - there being no do-gooding civil rights lawyers around in those days - no confession could be obtained from the unfortunate creature and so it was hanged.

It has occured to me therefore, that given the large influx of Frenchmen into England after 1789 and then again after 1815, (many with a scientific and manufacturing background) it is highly possible - in fact, probable given the fast emerging local industries - that some will have arrived in Accy. Would one of them have lived close to these steps, therefore and hence been referred to as the 'French Monkey'? Or even better, would someone have hung a Frenchman on the site of these steps so that from that day to this they are known as the monkey steps?

Anyway, it's only a theory.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 790301)

I have another theory as to the origin of the 'Monkey Steps'.

As many of you are aware, Hartlepool have a football team in the league whose nickname is the 'Monkey Hangers'. While this may, on the face of it, appear rather a derogatory term, most residents of that town are rather proud of the label. The origin goes back to the Napoleonic Wars and the wrecking of a French ship on the rocks by the town. The only survivor from the incident was the ships monkey, whom the local townsfolk - not being the most intelligent of people - took to be a Frenchman, and a spy to boot. After rigourus interrogation - there being no do-gooding civil rights lawyers around in those days - no confession could be obtained from the unfortunate creature and so it was hanged.

It has occured to me therefore, that given the large influx of Frenchmen into England after 1789 and then again after 1815, (many with a scientific and manufacturing background) it is highly possible - in fact, probable given the fast emerging local industries - that some will have arrived in Accy. Would one of them have lived close to these steps, therefore and hence been referred to as the 'French Monkey'? Or even better, would someone have hung a Frenchman on the site of these steps so that from that day to this they are known as the monkey steps?

Anyway, it's only a theory.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 790622)

Yo Retlaw!

I now have another theory.

As you are aware, the 1850's saw a great flowering in the introduction of foreign flora, fauna and the like into the British Isles (think of Darwin and Joseph Banks). One of the species intoduced was that of the Chile Pine - also known as the 'Monkey Puzzle Tree' - when fully grown, a reet monster of a thing.

So could there have been such a tree up 'yon? And could someone have built steps up to it? The timing seems about right.

It all makes sense to me:)