Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I thought I would start a new thread, on this, instead of put ting it on Accy photos. Bob I know what you mean, with the clergy, it was a case of do as I say, not do as I do. Hypocrisy was rife in those days, you wern't allowed to question the faith. Now the Polititions have taken over.George bush has made a career out of it, with his little mate Johnny Howard.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I recall that at the age of 6 we were instructed, at school (St. Oswalds, Willows Lane),on the rituals and dogma associated with making our first confession. So every day for what seemed like an eternity we were made to turn our chair round and kneel on them and chant the Confession Formula;"Bless me Father for I have sinned" etc etc. There is a lot to be said for learning things by rote.

Then one unforgettable day our teacher, Miss McGinn, (Who I believe had red hair and freckles.) decided that she would treat us to an explanation of the evils of sin and the consequent necessity of confession. Remember, we were 6-7 years old at the time. She said that every time we committed a sin it was as though we had placed Jesus on the cross again and that his wounds would open up and bleed. This revelation was delivered with such macabre relish that it silenced the lot of us, the ones that weren't in tears that is. There was a good deal more of this in the days and weeks leading up to the event itself, but thankfully my brain appears to have blocked most of it out.

I am sure that a psychologist would have had a field day with Miss McGinn. I am also sure that it is a wonder that we turned out to be reasonably sane individuals. Or maybe I am overreacting here?

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I hope you tell the priest about these horrible thoughts next time you go to confession...you're going to get more than 3 Hail mary's & an Our Father, I can tell you.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - I don't think so!

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Just tried to send you a private message bob, it said there was an error in user name,any ideas?

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I remember Kneeling on chairs, practicing for communion, with ice cream waffers, talk about suffer little children.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Ice cream wafers eh, you went to a posh school then?:)

Do you remember the Holy Souls collection? We were given a little card as a record of our contributions to this worthy cause. Every time we paid a penny one of the little squares surrounding a picture of St. Joseph was pierced with a needle. I wonder how much they managed to rake in with that little scam? Oddly enough though when we moved to Holy Family the practice was not continued.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

They still have the practice but with boxes. My youngest left junior school two years ago and up till that time brought one home every year (think it was October) to fill, but has never done at Mount Carmel.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Is there any explanation on the boxes about what the money will be used for?

In my day it was to pay for extra Masses to be said for the souls in purgatory. Funny thing, that; having to pay priests to say Mass. You would think that if they were so concerned to limit the time spent by souls in purgatory that they go to the trouble of organising a public collection, then they would be spending every waking hour saying Mass anyway. Or better still doing whatever they can to persuade the Pope to abolish purgatory altogether. If I understand theology correctly it does fall within his remit.

Incidentally, did you know that whenever the Pope celebrates a Pontifical High Mass he is handed a purse of gold coins "For a Mass well sung".

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

So what conclusion are we to draw from the above statements. That everyone contributing now considers religion a big con, invented by the rich minorities to control the poor majorities?

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

:rose8: I think you hit the nail on the head JW only I havent just come to that conclusion Ive always thought it.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Not quite sure if there is any explanation on the boxes about what the monies are for. I always persumed that it went towards missionaries.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

>>So what conclusion are we to draw from the above statements. That everyone contributing now considers religion a big con, invented by the rich minorities to control the poor majorities?<<

I don't really know to be honest. The original post, on another thread, was about the hypocracy of the clergy. I suppose this thread is turning into something of a breast beating exercise for our gullibility. I mean, when you look at it dispassionately and objectively, it really is the most ridiculous load of old tosh. How were we sucked into it?
I feel to be fair, I must at this point, offer some apology to readers who may still hold their faith precious. It is not my intention to belittle or denigrate your personal beliefs in any way at all.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Thats what faith is all about, just because we are being a bit negative,it doest mean to say we are having a go at people who have that faith, that goes for any religion.Its just that in hind sight, If you questioned it, you would go to hell. remember, we had to get permission to go into a non catholic church from the parish priest, mixed marriges where pretty rare.These thing had nothing to doe with Jesus. Im a great believer in god, does that make me a hypocrite. By the way Bob I went to St Mary's Clayton, then on to Holy Family.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Speaking personally, I incline toward a more Gnostic view of religion. But , as far as Rome is concerned that is HERESY.

Well it would be wouldn't it, since Gnosticism places far more importance on self knowledge and the development of a personal response to the divine as well as denying the hierarchy any place at all.

It is hardly surprising that,faced with a potential loss of power, influence and money, Rome organised a Crusade to stamp the heresy out in the thirteenth century. But Gnosticism is as old as Christianity and refuses to die. The Church seems to be unable to take the lesson from the central tennet of Christianity; namely that you can kill people, but you can't kill an idea. Which, I suppose, is why so many people now say they believe in God but no longer believe in the Church.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I've been a non-believer now for many years. My wife, a devout Christian, though not a regular churchgoer, prays for me daily. Because of her beliefs and her constant requests for me to think deeply about it all; I have really made an effort to concentrate my thoughts in a positive way. However, the more I delve into my mind, the more convinced I am that there is absolutely nothing/no-one there. If there is someone there with ultimate power, then it is my opinion that he/she has either, made a damn mess of the whole thing, or has a very sick/perverse sense of humour.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

But then again, 'The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.' (L.P. Hartley. "The Go-between")

I can recall coming back from holiday in Cleveleys, my father met us at the train station with the awful news that Pope John XXIII had just died. I can recall thinking that it was somehow right that it was raining, I felt there was some kind of link between the rain and my own tears. The shock that we felt was real and our grief was almost palpable. It was as though a member of the family had passed away. I can also recall -just- watching part of his funeral on television. It was the first time I had seen anything of this quasi-mythical place called the Vatican. To say that I was spellbound would be something of an understatement. I had never seen anything like it before. I think that one event, has coloured my life in ways that I can only now begin to guess at.

Will we and our children feel the same when the current incumbent eventually passes away? I somehow doubt it.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Why once a Catholic? - nobody asked me. Somebody a lot bigger just poured water over me and mumbled a bit. What does that make me? I refuse to believe that somebody else can make promises on my behalf and expect me to be the one to keep them.

That said, I did all the Communion stuff, too, WITH ice cream wafers - dead posh.

Does anybody remember black babies? I think the money was for the missions, but if you paid 5 shillings you got to "adopt" one and give it its baptismal name. I sometimes used to wonder what I would do if they all turned up on the doorstep! I remember trying to call one Russell after my little cousin, but that was refused because it wasn't a saint's name. My friend Mary's mother's parents (bit convoluted that) wanted her to be called Marian, but the priest refused, on the same basis, so she was baptised Mary Ann, but always called Marian.

Why did we let them get away with it??

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Why indeed. But there are other things that lurk in this particular closet, things that shame, things that can still hurt, things that can horrify. Shattered illusions are just the begining.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

It isn't God who has made a mess of things - it is mankind, human beings or whatever the polically correct term us. God doesn't control us like puppets on a string. We all have our free agency. Unfortunately by and large we don't seem to do very well with it do we?

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Wow!! Colour predudice is banned from this forum but it seems ok to ridicule peoples personal beliefs even though they have spent their lives living their life according to their religion!
I personally am an agonistic .....but respect my fiances (and her families) views that there is life after death and their beliefs reflect their attitude to life. I feel that this topic should be banned from the forum as it attracts the "non-believers" to make upsetting remarks to those that "believe." and without being accused of "sermonising" cannot reply to those who choose to ridicule their beliefs (goodbye karma!)

Religion is a personal thing and should not be aired in a nonchalent way on a forum such as this. I find it offensive even though I am a non-believer, how do those that believe feel!!
MICK, TAKE NOTE!

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Speaking as a believer I do not find remarks made by unbelievers to be personally upsetting to me. I know it's always been an age-old thing never discuss religion or politics but I don't mind other people's point of view and would defend their right to have an opinion different to my own. Then again it might have a lot to do with the fact that in the church I belong to we are not told what to believe but encouraged to gain our own testimony of different aspects of the religion. This also goes for the children who at first no doubt go along with what their parents are doing but by the time they reach 12 or 13 they are by and large very definite about where they stand. I have a ten year old who isn't averse to voicing her opinion too. It has got them through some very tough times.

Unlike some I do no feel happy thrusting my beliefs upon other people but gladly welcome a discussion anytime.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Busman 747 writes: >>I personally am an agonistic .....<<

Do we take him at his word? The trusty OED gives this definition:
agonistic.adj. polemical, combative. [from Greek agonostikos, related to AGONY]
or rather does he mean this:
agnostic, n. a person who believes that nothing is known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena [based on Greek gnosis 'knowledge']

It would be nice to know.

That being said, if Busman747 took the time and trouble to read all the posts in the thread he would see that I have taken care to point out that in contributing to this discussion I, in no way, seek to belittle or denigrate the faith which other people may hold dear. Nothing I have written is untrue or outside my own personal experience and I stand ready to defend every single word. True faith is a gem held within the heart that nothing can tarnish, least of all any mere words of mine.

As for banning any discussion, I would just like to point out that the experience of Catholicism informs a large part of the lives of the people of Accrington and District and has done so since before the Reformation. Placing an embargo on any discussion of the subject would hamper any attempt to understand the motives and social behaviour of a vast number of people, many of whom were instrumental in the development of the borough.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Well if you look at the definitions you posted and at the fact that Busman says he is an agnostic you'll see he is using the word as a noun rather than an adjective which means that he describes himself as a person who believes that nothing is known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena.

I find it interesting how Catholicism features so strongly in this area and enjoy hearing people's memories of their childhood experiences. I have a friend who relates tales of nuns who put the fear of God in her. Having spent some time in Ireland I found a lot of people over there who relate similar tales of childhood and having the catechism drummed into them and yet some grow up with a very devout faith which somehow trancends all of that whilst others merely end up cynical about religion as a whole.

As for the actual priests and nuns etc, they are after all human beings and none of us are perfect. Unfortunately some of us are more imperfect than others and it's always those ones whyo make the most interesting stories. I used to pester the life out of Fr. Henderson at St. Joseph's by going round there asking him all sorts of deep and meaningful questions which he'd probably never had to bother thinking about before but I really wanted to know the Catholic view on such matters. At the time I was looking for a church to belong to as I was fairly disillusioned where I was and yet I had my own personal beliefs and faith. I also had a very close friend who was RC.

I remember Fr. Henderson being grumpy and irritable but also patient enough to try to answer my questions. I also remember him on one occasion when one of his parishioners who had Irish setters was walking her dogs along by the railway and one suddenly pulled the lead and she fell over. Although he went to see if she was OK he just said "If you had smaller dogs it wouldn't happen". That left us both laughing. It was just his way. Like the time he "punished" the congregation by making them sing a hymn again because it hadn't been sung to his liking the first time. Maybe other people have different memories of him but I'll always remember him fondly.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I don't think the people in South West Florida had anything to do with making that hurricane that just did billions of dollars worth of damage and killed a few people. All I'm saying is, that if there is someone there with absolute power, why let a thing like that happen?

I am not trying to ridicule anyone's beliefs, I'm just giving reasons why I don't believe.:)

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

They are just one of the the many experiences, in our lives. We are not hear to upset or belittle anyone. If someone dosnt like what's on the radio or tv or on your computor go to another channel or turn it off, but dont throw a wobbly.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

While we are, I think, right in criticising the excesses of the Church, you cannot deny they know how to put on a good show. I came across this pic of Pius XII, leaving the Vatican after saying Mass, the other day. What an exit!

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Jesus Travelled in on a donkey.......A lesson in humility is needed for the above...

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

isnt that what this thread is about, jesus was poor but he believed, the pic above gives you the insite as to the MANMADE idea of worship //

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Goodness gracious,Simon. You're not suggesting that His late Holiness actually enjoyed any of that vulgar performance are you?
Tsk,Tsk. I am sure it was all carried out for the benefit of the faithful. You know, a reflection on earth of the majesty of heaven, that sort of thing.

I am reminded of the words of the second Borgia Pope, Alexander VI, something to the effect of: 'God has given us the Papacy, it would be a sin not to enjoy it'.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I for one feel left out of this conversation having been brought up Church of England I can Honestly say that I've had next to no religious education at all, therefore I & probably others like me can't understand the passion that you are all putting into this topic.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Wonder why they call the Roman Catholic Church the richest in the world? Obviously it speaks for itself.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I think the fact that some people feel passionate about their religion and others have a great passion against all religion is reflected in the foregoing postings. Religion has stirred up passions for centuries. Let's face it, most wars have been fought on religious platforms so I think a little bit of written passion on a forum is a safe and healthy way to go. I doubt anyone is going to die over it.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Doug, you must have something to add??

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

In answer to Less's question about passion. I don't think that it is passion, so much as conditioning. The Jesuit's have a famous saying, to the effect of 'Give me a child until he is seven and he is mine for life'. Thus the phrase ' Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.' The conditioning we were given from an early age was so effective that even now that we are old enough to reason for ourselves, it still works. Like Pavlov's Dog, one whiff of incense and we are off, barely able to restrain ourselves from crossing ourselves and genuflecting all over the place. Which is sort of annoying and comforting at the same time. It is because of this that many of us have a sort of love/hate relationship with a church that we no longer belong to in a practising sense, but that we will always belong to till we die. It is for this reason that many of us felt something akin to personal berevement when we watched Sacred Heart Church being demolished. Perhaps it is something that is very difficult to understand if you didn't go through the same process.

For some of us, the experiences we endured have scarred us irrevocably and my heart and sympathies go out to them. I wish that I could say that they are, mercifully, in a minority. But, sadly, I don't think that this is the case. As Shakespeare says '...the evil that men do, lives on, while the good is oft interred with their bones...'

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Basically does not matter what Religion you are born in to if you do not believe in God

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I don't think that we are actually discussing belief in the existence of the deity, except in passing. We are discussing memories and experience of the organisation of orthodox religion, a different thing altogether.

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As you said bob ' Conditioning' and i can only see that one is born in to a religion.Not many people in this world choose their religion but instead are born in to one and stay with for the rest of their lives.
Interesting point is that here in Germany they try to incur a Religion Tax.All of ones own free will apparently until you refuse to pay it.The its court cases and the likes.Been through one myself.I was asked to show written proof that i had left the 'Church'.When asked for written proof that i had actaually joined the church, well nothing more was said!Court case finished.And it is a fact that the Catholic Church is one of the richest institutions on this earth

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I must be one of the not many in that case because I wasn't born into the church I am a member of. I chose it.

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One of a kind that breaks against the grain

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Can you explain a little more about this 'Religion Tax', Mick?

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Basically Bob 1% of your Gross wage gets syphoned off to the local church where you live.Unless of course you do not put down any religion on your tax form like yours truly did.

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That's outrageous, how do they justify what is in effect a state subsidy? How did they get it past the EU? Do any other member states operate this tax?

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The correct version of the above is "Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man" and was uttered by St. Ignatius Loyola the founder of the Jesuit fathers.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Bavaria is a Catholic stronghold.The worst thing that i have experienced is that when you are unemployed the tax is automatically syphoned off your unemployment benifit.If or not you are a mebmer of teh church and have paid this tax previously.When i complained about that i was told that it would be too much work for a civil servant to handle everybodies case seperately.That is crap as your unemployment benifit is based on your average earnings for the last 3 months and has to be worked out seperately anyway.god knows how it is doen but that is the practise over here

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

That is outrageous! Why don't we start our own church, the Accywebbers Ecumenicists, register it in Bavaria, and use the money for beer? We'd make sure you got plenty, Mik, even if we have to send you the money most of the time!

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

This is the way they are over here.I used to hang around with a Bavarian lad whos parents paid him 50 DM, thats about 17 quid, a month so he would got to church 2 a month.The reason being was they did not want the family to be talked about! Once a Catholic always a Catholic apparently

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I seem to dimly recall that at sometime in the very late sixties Sacred Heart introduced a sort of tithe scheme, whereby parishoners placed a certain percentage of their weekly income in envelopes and handed them in during the Sunday Mass. Anyone here remember that?

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Yes, they did have the envelopes, I don't remember it as being a percentage, but certainly they kept a check on who had put in and who hadn't. My mother was a long-term invalid, and had a dispensation for attending Mass, but Father Stack (I think it was) used to pop round to collect her envelope if another member of the family hadn't put it in the box.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

yes i too remember putting money in the envelopes, i cant remember how much though , but i used to go to st marys church up ossy anyway, i prfared it there, i went to st, marys school any way.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Funnily enough I have just been looking at the programme of events for the opening of Sacred Heart Church in 1869, where it is announced that A Pontifical High Mass would be sung by the Rt. Rev. William Turner, Bishop of Salford. Attendance was by Admission Cards which could be obtained from several outlets.
Prices: Front Seats - 5 Shillings,
Second Seats - Two Shillings and sixpence,
Back Seats - One Shilling.
A luncheon was later held at the Town Hall, admission to which was 10 shillings.

A Solemn High Mass was celebrated the next day, it being Sunday, for which parishoners were tactfully reminded that 'Silver will be thankfully received at the door.'

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Hells bells and buckets of blood! For a family of four, in the 'best seats' and including lunch would have cost Three Pounds. I doubt many people earned that much in a week in 1869! No wonder the Catholic Church is one of the richest institutions in the world.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I am a non practising catholic.................tried to get away but cant quite give up the saint thing. Mind you arent angels in now and yet we all knew about them from being very young.I made my first communion in1968 at St Mary's in ossy three things still stay with me ,I made £1. 3 -/ and 6d, I broke my heart because I thought I was not able to make it (i Lied to my mum about a jam butty) and I wore a brace that any food could get stuck to, imagine my horror after being told of hell and damination if anyoneother thana priest touched the host!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who remembers Father Waterson, he told me because I had a disability I was one of God's chosen ones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hey I wanted to tell him I wish he'd chosen someone else.

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

I tried a bit of a comparison with income to give some vague idea of meaning.
We know that in 1878 Mr J.Lomax of Clayton Hall forked out £1,500 to provide the high altar at Sacred Heart. Which was designed by C.W.Pugin and carved by Easy and Powell of Dublin. In 1921 the Church secured an allowance of 15 shillings and ninepence for a widowed mother who lost her son in the war. This gives some idea of what was considered 'decent' at the time. So, for the sake of argument and ease of calculation, I will consider that the basic minimum wage in 1878 was 10 Shillings. There was no 'Basic Minimum Wage' at that time of course, but the concept provides a useful benchmark for comparison. Given a current basic minimum wage of £160., I calculate that Mr Lomax's gift would, today, cost him somewhere in the region of £480,000.

Of course, a simple comparison like this cannot reflect anything like the true value of such a gift, nor indeed what impact it would have had on the parishoners of the time. Given that the general population were a lot less worldy than they are today, and had next to no knowledge or experience of High Art and Architecture, I would hazard the guess that it's impact was substantial, if not sensational.
As I have said before, you can say what you like about the Church, but they do know how to put on a good show!

Re: Once A CATHOLIC.
 

Yea well A-B, if we had their money, we could put on a bluddy good show too.