What is happening to our judicial system?
 

I have been reading in the paper today about a married couple in Essex who have had their children removed from their care and forcibly put up for adoption.

The children were said to be well cared for, the home was clean.......so what was the crime of the parents that meant their children could be removed by Social Services.......they were described as 'slow'.
The husband has held down a job for the past 22 years with the same company. The wife has an IQ of 60......and the social workers judged that her 'anticipatory skills' in caring for the children were lacking.

Essex Social Services have taken the case to court and a female judge has given social services the go ahead to have the children removed and adopted. The natural parents will have no access to the children until they are 18......they will get two photographs a year and maybe a video. They will not be informed if either child has need of medical care or treatment.

Human rights.......do they have any.....?

So the courts can do this to a law abiding couple, but they cannot sanction what they see as the abuse of human rights of the hate preachers and would be suicide bombers.

What is this country coming to......? I really do despair.

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Thats heartbreaking Margaret and totally wrong, how can this be allowed to happen, those children are obviously fine, there are hundreds if not thousands of children living in awful situations who need to be removed from parental care, but yet they get overlooked.

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This has been in the papers for the last few days. It is disgusting that two people who seem so stable and caring for their children are discriminated against because some high and mighty thinks they are not as intelligent as someone else.

I doo hope this gets put right.

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I have read of three other cases like this in the last year. I thought social services were there in order to keep families together where ever possible? With a bit of support there is no reason why those kids couldn't have grown up in the loving care of their parents. I think it is diabolical and as the saying goes "the law is an ass" Some kids are allowed to stay with parents as their carers some with junkie parents e.t.c but woe betide you if you can't read or write very well or come across to the SS as slow!

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The mother is heartbroken...... and the response of the Social Services to this is.......we'll organise some counselling for her, or help her to get a job.
Well, to my mind she already has a job........to be the mother of her children, and if they allowed her to do that (maybe with some support) then she wouldn't NEED counselling.

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Entwisi, this case has been going on since May. The newspaper has pointed out that Essex Social Services are a long way off meeting their Government set targets for the number of adoptions in their area........I might be being a bit cynical but do you think there could be a link.

The other thing is that since the children have been in the care of Social Services the younger child has developed Hydrocephalus (water on the brain), no one can account for how this developed. The adoptive parents that had been identified for these children has now pulled out of the adoption because of the younger childs' medical problems.

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Its a bit of a coincedence that the social services initials are SS considering thats how they are behaving. :eek:

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This is a disgusting state of affairs. I often see wildly inappropriate people given access to their babies with Social Services support, supervised access etc. This includes sex offenders. This is a terrible abuse of power and an attempt to make it look like Social Workers actually do a job. We all know the cock-ups that they have made in the past, Victoria Climbie and the Cleveland child sex abuse scandal are just 2 examples.

We all know that social problems didn't exist until they invented social workers..:)

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I think the family have been advised to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights.

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this is absolutely disgraceful and if anyone on here works for the SS i darent print what im thinking now,but i hope you get my drift,

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the judge is just as bad and should be barred for life from residing as a judge as well

anyone with a shred of dignity or common sense would have thrown the case out of court

its one thing these idiots at social services actualy got this case to court but more shocking the judge didnt throw the case out

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Sorry Margaret, I read about this in the mornings paper and remembered it from Mays report, I have been seething all day at work and when I finally came home just had to give vent to my anger in "word." to put on the accy web. I am glad that you also feel as I do and judging by comments, other accy web members also.

As I have just spent a couple of hours one-finger typing my comments (without checking the accy web first) please forgive me for putting my contribution on as it stands as it is too late to make amendments.........

In May, there was a report in a national paper about a couple who loved each other, set up home together for 10 years and ultimately had two children- - - - and the follow-up story was in todays newspaper after they received the results of a court case held behind closed doors!



What had they done wrong? NOTHING according to the Judge

And their punishment? To have both their children aged 4 and 14 months put up for adoption! They were told that the ONLY contact they should have with their children is to be 2 photos per year until the children reach the age of 18.



OK, In case you missed this story I will explain how it all came about:



Mum is 29 years old and is classed as “special needs.” Although she is slow, she can read and write and loves her family very much. She was told that her children must go to a “forever mummy and daddy” because the S.S. (Social Services, but S.S, is more suitable) said that she was not clever enough to be a good parent and lacked intelligence to understand the childrens needs.



Quote from Mum:

“They kept saying I have no relationship with my little girl but it isn’t true. She loves playing in the bath with me. She loves her baby brother and wants to help me change his nappies.

They said I didn’t play with her when they were observing us but I was feeding the baby at the time”



Dad is 37 and does NOT have a learning disability. He has worked for the same manufacturing company for 22 years but was criticised for not giving up his job to help care for the children and was said to have anger management issues because he became irritable with a team of social workers who appeared determined to take away his children.



The S.S, admit that neither of the children have had an accident in the home or has come to any harm but told the judge that they were at “future risk.”



The S.S. reportedly “crammed” themselves into the flat to watch the family and criticised the parents for not putting out enough toys and for not keeping strict enough daily routines. They highlighted the fact that Mum took too long to brush her teeth and to change the babies nappy while the Dad was criticised for giving his daughter crisps before she had a sandwich.



In April 2004, some Social workers spoke up for them claiming the Mum lost confidence when she was under constant scrutiny and voted to remove the childrens names from the councils “at risk” register but the decision was reversed by a hastily convened child protection meeting and Care proceedings were started by the council to remove the children. In November last year, the couple were banned from seeing the children after Mum, driven to despair snapped and pulled a social workers hair during an access meeting. (I would probably have ripped her F***ing head off personally)



Because of the secrecy that pervades the care system they had no one to turn to for help. They were told that if they spoke to anyone they would risk being jailed for contempt of court which would mean that they would lose their children so they could not even get solicitors advice! The end result was that the courts ruled they should lose their children anyway.



They finally turned to Lib-DemCounty Councillor Barry Aspinall for help and he was immediately served with an injunction by the local authority to silence him but he fought successfully through the courts for the right to discuss the case and allow some scrutiny of the authorities actions. A fresh legal challenge was mounted by the family to overturn the decision but last week, a judge ruled that the children must be put up for immediate adoption.



The judge Mrs. Justice Pauffley said amonst other rantings that “they are selfish in their desire to keep their children” and finished with “A reasonable parent would recognise that his/her childs welfare was the decisive factor in the equation and would put to one side self-interest and desire. The advantages of adoption for these children are overwhelmingly strong. I have no doubts but that the right thing to do is override the parents objections.”



The decision is made and after adoption, there can be no going back, this couple have lost perhaps even their reason for being. I have spent many hours week in week out talking to people like this couple in my job and my heart goes out for them. I feel sickened by the callous heartless bas***** that promote themselves as the new messiah in the name of being politically correct and acute embarrassment for being part of the western world that is destined for the dark ages-----------------



As a footnote, Professor Tim Booth done research that showed that 20% of all local authority care proceedings in this country involve parents with a learning disability!!

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You'll find that judges very rarely rule against social services because they're supposed to know these families ........... not always the case though is it and it's very unfair :(

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I have a freind at the moment who is going through this kind of SS nightmare, his sister has had her kids taken away for no good reason..... The family are distraught, and he is sure it will end in his sister taking her own life :(

My family has got a few social workers(kid removal type) in it, and they tell me if you do JUST as they say you will be fine.....

Problem is when they sit in your house and suggest that you could lose your kids....who could stay rational and not KICK back to protect your kids...Then they say you are not fit parents, when your actions prove you are ???????

Very sad situations...........With little sign of hope :(

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Makes me wonder with social workers if their families are your average functional family if you scratched below the surface :mad: or would half of them have their kids on care orders!

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You'd have thought they'd have learn't some lessons from a few years ago, when Social Services removed children from their families in Orkney, for wrongly accusing them of child molestation.

On the other hand children, in particular the little girl in London, was killed and tortured by her Aunt because Social Services didn't get involved.

You'd think with such an important thing as child welfare they could find a happy and safe medium.

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OMG...I do not believe all you ppl.A woman with an IQ of 60???That means she has the intelligence of a child.There is two sides to every story remember that the next time ur picking up your copy of the sun,mirror or star cuz it sounds like your gullable enough to believe all the crap in them rags.

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So everyone with a low IQ should have their children taken from them ?...... come on!!!

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And how the H**l does your intelligence quota affect your capacity to love and care.........

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:mad: ggrrr That's really annoyed me! Do you really think these people regardless of IQ want their dirty washing aired in public and it said publicly that the SS think that they aren't capable of bringing their children up ....... I think not! These people have gone to the papers and magazines to fight for their children and raise awareness that quite often these people **** up big time and they are a law unto themselves!

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ok,would you be happy leaving your children with a 8-10 year old 24/7?Thats an IQ of 60.

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IQ of 60 but with life experience and maturity to care..........................

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YEP I would..............

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I agree with Simon and Tinks on this there are too many kids without loving parents these have 2 loving ones. If mental capacity came into everything a lot of us would be in a mess. Kids need a loving stable home not a place that just feeds and waters em. They were put up for adoption with no success so far how would we feel in this kind of situation? Love is the one thing a child can never have to much of!!!!!:mad:

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OMG,you are so naive.Well to be quite blunt and honest I would not want a retarded person looking after my child(if I had 1).God it's people like you that watch films like TITANIC and believe all that excrement,nevermind 15,000 ppl dying oooo the ficticious Jack is dead i think i'll cry.

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This woman has a good enough IQ not to be a junky, p*** head or neglect her children! Her only fault is being slow! Let's sterilse all 13 year old girls that are in remedial classes at school shall we !!

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1,500 i meant to say

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i know a guy with a very high IQ and is registered with MENSA

the same guy asked me how to cook salad when he tried living on his own

he can work out complicated mathamatics like interest rates on car loans before the guy has used his calculater to tell him the total payments after interest etc all in his head without using fingers to add

this guy i know is a friend but to put it in laymans terms he is thick as pig sh1t when it comes to life and lifes experiences

IQ levels dont mean crap all the IQ test proves is that you are good at puzzle solving

i once took an IQ test and although i only came back as average ( forget the score i got now ) i am pretty confidant i am a lot smarter than my friend

although he is a better speller than me lol

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You're a lot smarter than a lot of people mate.

The Chavilicous image is all front.

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Never rely on IQ TESTS people can be stong as an ox in one area and as weak as as alchohol wine in others. Life experienc maters not some test. They are pre judging somebody without knowing them. Brains dont make a person.

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smarter than your average kinda bear anyway :D

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Pilky................. not being judgematic.... but I guessed you had no kids of your own.....:)

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I can see some logic in that chav1.I have taken an official mensa test and have an IQ of 147 which just qualifies for MENSA but at times I admit I am plain dumb.There should be a common sense test integrated with the iq test.

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She's proberly got more gumption than those who put her in this position. I hope she can get both kids back.

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It is rather sad when every Tom, Dick and Harry can have untold number of children, and yet these two apparently loving parents, aren't allowed to bring them up as a family.

There are always two sides to every story though.

Why was the hearing heard in a closed court?

Do we have all the facts? We only have the details that have been released to the press.

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Pity we dont have the otherside of the story.

Closed court could be for identity protection.

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All of these cases are in closed courts with SS employees only :( They control the whole show :(

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don't let the facts get in the way of a good story said the sun,star and mirror.

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Maybe the IQ test should be for the SS not the mother

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Yes, but apart from keeping details private and protecting the children's identity, details of why the children were removed are usually made fully available to the press, which they weren't in this case.

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Starting to make me wonder what exactley is going, secrecy is bad news

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Exactly. I do have deep sympathy for this couple if the story is as reported, but apparently the couple did go to the press, and have recieved payement for their story.

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Now that makes it more intesting

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A story is always more intersting when all the facts are made available to the public.;)

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I think ur all confusing the SS with the SAS.We all know that it must have taken a lot of time and alot of unfortunate events to take place for this situation to arise.I just get the impression that people see a child being ripped from the grasp of a parents arms and i think they are so naive because they would not do that without just cause.

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As sad as this case first seems, I would much rather see a child in care rather than in a coffin, which has happened in quite a few high profile cases were the parent's or guardian's neglect and/or cruelty has resulted in children loosing their lives.

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How can you make a similarity with this mother being slow and dead children in high profile cases. Those people are murderers not slow!

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Children have died because Social Services didn't pick up on abuse that's all I'm saying.

If the story is correct, and we do have all the facts it's a disgrace.

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All too often we jump to conclusion before the full facts are known. I haven’t personally followed this particular case, but I have been aware of a few others, quite often these cases start out at the hands of well meaning but ill educated busy bodies, they think they know something or assume that they know better and this often results in a concern being interpreted as a complaint. It never ceases to amaze me how the rights of one individual can be withdrawn on back of the unjust assumption of lack of capability, life experience or parenting skills, particularly in this client group.

What I am about to say, I don’t say it to be offensive to any one individual or group who do bring up there children both successfully and respectfully, but we suffer from a perverted sense of what’s right and wrong in this country, in particular within the social welfare sector.

We allow, underage, struggling mothers to keep a child because it’s deemed to be right, even if that child suffers, “it happens” the same is acceptable in respect of non heterosexual parents, it appears to be acceptable for a gay couple of either sex to bring up a child even form new born and call it normal? Yet, it is not acceptable for someone whom is loving and protective of their children but might be a little slow but cognitively conscious.

It’s time we got a grip of ourselves; it’s time that justice had an overall. Perverts can live were they want in anonymity, because they have rights? A family who are reportedly caring and attentive don’t and have there children removed? Time for change………..

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Pilkybusdriver......it wasn't in the Sun.....or The Daily Mirror. And this is not the first set of parents to have their children removed without consent.
This woman with the IQ of 60 had been caring adequately for the children, they were loved, the home was clean, they were well fed......and they were where they should be.......that's with their parents. The father was providing for them and helping in the caring for them. And whatever you say, it is a travesty to remove children from their parents when they have been with them for 4years and 16 months respectively.

If the Social Services thought that these people were not capable of looking after the children why were they not removed soon after birth?

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Nobody takes the children away from deaf or blind parents.......and you could say that these parents were lacking in the 'anticipatory' parenting skills.

The hearing was held in a closed court.......and the couple were told allegedly by social workers that if they told anyone what was going on then they would definitely lose their children.
A local MP is looking at this case at present.......and the family are said to be consulting lawyers with a view to taking this case to the European Commission for Human Rights.

The point I was trying to make in the original thread was: Much is made of the Human Rights of the people who preach hate......and the people who would terrorise our population, but it appears the Human Rights of this family have been trodden into the dirt.
Equality.....no sign of it here.

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Whenever child proceedings take place and there is any possibility of the children being taken away, the parents are actively encouraged by SS to seek the aid of a solicitor. It is the norm for SS to give the parents information about solicitors specialising in family law. It doesn't sound like this was done in this particular case.

I have been at enough case conferences over the last 10 years to know......

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Very true lettie, but are these solicitors REALLY in a position to question, The Court, The specialists ( ;) ), or the facts ( ;) ) that the Social Service come up with ??

Most of these solicitors earn a good wage from these recommendations from the court.....

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An update on this story......the adoption of the children has been put on hold as the couple have been granted the right to appeal. I hope they have a good brief to act for them!

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So do I. Better a loving parent who isn't the sharpest knife in the box than the bright one who doesn't give a damn about the children.

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Isn't the media just bloody amazing sometimes :) ! There's so much interest in this case now that there's no room for any SS mistakes, if them kiddies truly should be with their parents I think they will be now.

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I just hope if these kiddies, get placed back with the parents, that the f******** social services get what they deserve. And I sincerely mean that.
It's OK people getting high and mighty, saying that the " social services" are wonderful, they help children escape miserable lives etc..........................

Yeah and they can also destroy a whole family in one swoop as well. And until you have children of your own, there is no possible way, you will ever feel the SHEER PAIN that this poor family is going through, if they are the decent people that the paper say they are.

People with learning difficulties, have as much right as the next person to be Loving, caring, protective parents. Just because they have difficulties, does not warrant DISCRIMINATION........... and that's what it is.

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is there a website where we can keep upto date on this case...?

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Not that I am aware of Chav......it was just a very small column in the Mail on Sunday.

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I just wonder if the Social workers will be as quick to intervene in the case of Kate Moss......she has a two year old child and if what is in the papers is to be believed, then she surely is not a fit person to bring a child up.

Apparently, it is cheaper to put a child up for adoption that to give the parents the support they need...... there is also the thorny issue of adoption targets to be met........this is not the only case in Essex where children have been removed from parents who are deemed unfit. I don't understand it at all.......single teenage mums get the help they need, so why can't other disadvantaged groups get assistance.

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There was nothing at the end of the article to say that they had been paid.......The Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday has highlighted a number of these cases......now a couple of MPs have taken an interest and I think that this maybe what has made Justice Pauffley grant leave of appeal.

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To be strictly fair to all parties, this is somewhat one-sided information, which makes it impossible to make an informed judgment.

It does seem from what appears above that the family were given the option of the father giving up work to assist mother in looking after the children. If he did so, the implication is that the children could remain with their parents. He did not choose to do so.

A person with an IQ of 60 is NOT equivalent to an 8 - 10 year old child. IQ stays fairly constant throughout life. I would have serious concerns about the ability of someone with so low an IQ to cope with emergencies or unforeseen events - and such a person would not have the capacity to envisage the consequences of some actions or events. Sad, but true.

As to Mrs Justice Pauffley, to be fair to her, her remit is the welfare of the children. She does not have any authority to consider the needs of the parents. The welfare of the child in the Family Courts is paramount.

I does concern me that the case was heard in private, and that the parents had no representation. As Lettie said, that is extremely unusual, there are usually case conferences with GPs and other interested persons.

Finally, it is a sad fact that most social workers have little or no formal qualification. You might imagine that the least they should have would be a degree in Sociology, but not so. It also does sometime seem that the job attracts inadequates who compensate by interfering in other people's lives.

I hope the parents are successful in their appeal - at least then we might be given more facts on which to base our conclusions.

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Well at least he was trying to support his, CHILDREN and his wife by working.
I know a lot of families that wouldn't really give a flying **** and just go straight onto benefits, loads easier wouldn't you say.
Yeah well the man did right, SELF RESPECT is important to. Who would have paid for these children had he given up work?? Yes the tax payers I most certainly think.
Isn't it better children grow up to see at least one parent working to support the family??.
And the social services had no right in trying to make a man that works for a living, give up work, just because his wife has learning difficulties.:mad:

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It does also depend on the type of IQ test that was used......as mentioned in a previous post not everyone is good at doing IQ tests......and the social workers did say that the children were clean, well fed and cared for...... surely to put some support in is not beyond the realms of possibility........the husband was given the option of giving up work, but then they would be needing benefits to survive........it seems a strange way to help the children.....to remove them from loving parents. Perhaps the fact that the youngest child has since developed hydrocephalus may have something to do with the adoption being put on hold too...or am I being just too cynical.

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Alison Lapper did not have her child removed from her.... she had support services supplied. Do you think that is because she is only severely physicallly disabled.......?
The mother in this case is said to be mildly educationally impaired.......doesn't she qualify for the social support and care that was offered to Alison.......?
Am I being just a bit cynical in thinking that Social Services thought that this couple would be an easy target due to their perceived compromised intellectual status.......?
A Nanny state.........?

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With your experiance as a nurse wont let you be cynical.

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Another update on this case. The couple have had their appeal quashed by another judge. There were however, concerns expressed about the secret nature of family courts. This couple are now considering taking their appeal to the house of Lords and failing that to the European Court of Human Rights