Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

A woman left infertile after cancer therapy has lost her fight to use embryos fertilised by an ex-partner.
They began IVF treatment in 2001 but he withdrew consent for the embryos to be used after they split up.
I think this women should have had the right to keep them, they are partly her and she would be the one bringing the child up, but now she cant have any kids at all. he will be ok he can still have kids.
I feel really sorry for this woman
whats your views on this??

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

But would she then go on to claim maintenance from him or worse benefits from the state. If not then she should be allowed to have the embryo implanted

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I really feel for her too, it makes me wonder why she just didn't freeze her eggs, I suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing. The man however does have a right to refuse, he doesn't want children with her and regardless of her saying she will bring the child up alone, that child would have had a right to know its father. Its a terrible situation, hope she can now get on with her life, there are lots of children in this country that need adopting maybe she can channel her love towards that.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

you have to feel sorry for the lady but the right judgment was made you cant make some one have a kid they dont want he would still be the dad no matter what justice in my opinion

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

you cant freeze eggs grego only embryos, they havent figured how to do that yet!
when they do then women wouldnt have this problem

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I feel sorry for her too. She has said that she would sign an affidavit that she would not claim anything from the father.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I'm surprised at that, thought you could:)

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

In that case ,she SHOULD have the chance to be a mum, after all if her former boy friend had just got her pregnent in the normal way,he would not have been able to make her have an abbortion ,which in my book amounts to the same thing,,, he is playing God,,, and the odds are HE will go on and be a father to someone elses children,,,I hope she gets her way in the end ,look how happy mrs Blood is now...

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Not sure re. the medical side Panther, but did say in a news report tonight that laws had now been passed whereby women are allowed to freeze their unfertilised eggs for future use, in the circumstances this lady found herself.

My heart breaks for this lady too, and think she should be allowed the chance to have a child of her own. Obviously the 'donor' (to put it loosely) is only afraid of the monetary consequences on his life .. did you see the smug git on telly tonight. Lots of us single mums have brought a child up with no payments, support from the father, and successfully may I add, so if any opt out clause can be produced for this no-wannabe father, then bring it on...... :mad: :mad:

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I think it is a very hard decision to tell any woman, who's natural maternal instincs are to bear children that they cannot have this chance, no matter what the reason, or how silm the chance of success is.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I'm pro-choice on issues like this. I believe a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy. Conversely I think a man should have rights too, when it comes to the creation of life. If this man has withdrawn his consent, that is sad for the woman, but I believe he has every right to do so.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I do feel incredibly sorry for this lady. Obviously at the time of the decision to freeze the embryos her boyfriend was all for it. However, even having given consent, he has every right to withdraw it, a right which we all have. If the right to withdraw consent is taken away it would potentially affect us all.

Presently, when we consent to medical treatment, operations etc. we can withdraw our consent right up until the time we are anaesthetised. I have known people do this because they are unsure of the outcome of the procedure.

I would have thought that this couple were carefully counselled prior to freezing the embryos, if so, they would have been warned that either party could withdraw consent at any given time. If they weren't given that information at the time, then future couples probably will be.

My sympathies are with Natalie Evans but all is not lost. There is potential for a donor egg, fair enough, the baby would not be genetically hers but if she is serious about wanting to have a child and is physically capable of carrying a child then it is definitely an option, as is adoption.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

it would be a right kick in the teeth if this man went on to have children later on, well I hope he cant, then he will feel what this woman is feeling right now!!

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

i totally agree with you on that one casper, if her ex doesnt want children then he was right in saying what he said, why should the man have to live his life knowing there is a child out there that he didnt want, yes he wanted it at the time when they where together, but not anymore.....i do feel sorry for this woman but i do also think the right thing has been done....why should he be forced into fathering a child when he isnt actually with the mother?


dont start on sperm donation either cos thats a different matter alltogether :D

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Why couldn't he simply have been classed the same way as a sperm donor though? They don't have any legal obligations do they? After all that's basically all he was once the relationship is over. What would happen I wonder if a sperm donor changed his mind after his sperm had been used? Would he have the right to insist on the embryo being destroyed?

It will be doubly heart breaking for her if she later hears that he has fathered other children. I almost feel like saying the same thing but two wrongs don't make a right and some other woman would lose out too.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Dont sperm donos get paid for their deposits tho :rolleyes:

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I persume they do get a bit for their bit hehehehe also would presume they would also have to sign a disclaimer or contract:confused:

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Ooh i wouldnt be sure i was mearely guessing im sure Lettie will have an idea:D

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

LOL Willow, it sure is, but if it were implanted then i presume it would of been too late & the choice be the womans then as normal:confused:

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

yes they do £25 a throw

if you ever buy the big issue they are always advertising for them in there


as for her being doubly heart broken if he goes on to have kids...thats a loada rubbish, he would be in a different relationship and may want them from that one, no one knows what this relationship was like, she may of been violent towards him, she may of slept round whilst she was with him, see people speculate on these things without actually knowing the TRUE facts, its ok for us to feel sorry for her and everything and give the bloke a hard time but we dont know everything about there relationship....get the facts before you judge

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I sincerely believe that fertility treatments, donor eggs, donor sperm, frozen embryos etc. have opened up a whole wriggling can of ethical worms which will have legal minds wrangling for generations to come. One of the problems these type of treatments throw up is that of consanguinous relationships (relationships where the couple are related).

We all know that it is legal to marry your first cousins here in the UK, it is not something that most of us would choose to do but it is certainly legal and perfectly acceptable especially within the Asian community.

What we are starting to see now is people getting involved in relationships then finding out that they are half brother and sister. They usually discover this after having an abnormal baby, late miscarriage or stillbirth where genetic testing of both parents is routinely offered... I kid you not, I am not making this up.

Can you imagine the trauma of finding out that you have married your brother/sister, just because one of you was conceived naturally and the other was by donor sperm/egg to a completely different woman.

This type of dilemma is one which fertility treatment throws up. In trying to help childless couples, science has thrown up a whole new set of problems. Infertility can cause profound psychological problems for some people but we are seeing more and more of these type of cases where there are relationships between people who do not know that they are related....

I'm sure that I heard through work that sperm donors in this country have decreased since their details could be given to their unknown children for medical reasons.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Ah gawd Lettie sounds scary but can see the complications, a lot more complicated than we 1st thought:eek:

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

This is something that has occurred to me a few times.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Me too, in fact I started to write a short story about a couple who married not knowing that they were in fact brother and sister....and only found out when they were investigated for fertility problems. Scary!

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I feel sorry for the guy! He's really been made to look like a bad barsteward in all of this hasn't he!

There is no way you should be able to force a person into parenthood if that is not their wish. The implications for this guy, and the child in later years would have been enormous if the court had ruled in her favour.

Imagine when the child becomes curious about its origins and having to explain that the child they can't approach their biological father.

No I really think the court was correct to rule against her, as has been said there is adoption if her wish to be a parent is so strong. The relationship ended let him get on with his life and she should move on with hers and look for alternatives.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

your saying exactly the same thing as i said earlier....i'm glad its not just me :D

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Miss Evans could have stored her eggs rather than embryos, which would have removed the need for a partner's consent. But embryos are more likely to survive the freezing and thawing process. She still has the option of trying for a child using donated eggs. Her solicitor said she had not ruled anything out.

I think she should have just stored the eggs.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I'm with Tink's on this one. Though I feel for the woman. She should have had the eggs frozen.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

like willow said eggs could not be frozen back then, just realised they couldnt do it then but can now, it something thats only just been able to do

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

this man has plenty of chances of becoming a father in the future. This poor womans chances of being a mother were thrown away along with her embryo's at the say so of this selfish man.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

What a ridiculous post Flash, the man is not selfish, it's his right not to have a child if he doesn't want one.

The circumstances were different back when the embryos were frozen, if they were still together then I'm sure he would say okay, but they aren't. No way should he be forced by any court to father children, I'm glad the courts saw sense and turned this woman down.

Being a parent is not the right of every person, it's merely a privilege.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Good point and it's interesting to note that because people know the circumstances they are quite happy for her to become a single mother, yet 99% of people when you mention single mothers are quite eager to lambast them as being a drain on scoiety, despite the circumstances being different when they became mothers.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

he agreed to it so he should have stuck by it, i agree with flash!
all she wanted was to be a mother, whats wrong with that.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Well said! Think it was responsible of the man to withdraw & for good reason, people moan about men pumping then running leaving woman saddled with the child without any thought, i do have respect for this guy however harsh it is on the woman, he did think of the consequences for the possible child. As u said riq quite right a child is not a commodity. I have an aunt who couldnt have children & she has had to get on with her life as best she could.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I have yet to find any article where it states the reason for the relationship split. Anyone know ?

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

No, but maybe it was her obsessive need for a child that drove them apart.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

what she should have done is have eggs fertilised by a doner too in case this did happen.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I did ask for a reason because until somebody shows otherwise the bloke has not really said why he is so adamant. I notice the embryos were placed in safe hands in 2001 and then they split in 2002. Maybe that was when it was made known that the relationship he thought he was in had a different purpose all along ? Yes I'm guessing but I would also suggest that what people are doing when they say he is selfish :)

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Yes, because you know the old saying, especially where men are concerned, 'if a job needs doing, do it yourself' lol! :)

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

But this case was not a donor agreement as such, circumstances changed & as much the woman has the right so far to keep a pregnancy a guy does not want, in the case the bloke had his right to refuse his contribution to the embryo, as it stands the court upheld that right. maybe this couple should of seriously thought of the what if we split up bit, may of avoided it who knows.

As for the technicality bit to which u will pull my thread, a frozen fertilised embryo is not a fetus nor as yet a living being.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

U been watching too much eastenders with that dr may :rofl38:

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Yup ........ :rofl38:

If she wants kids that bad she can have mine ;) ..... she'd soon bring them back though :rolleyes: :D

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

:rofl38: she can have my eldest an all, mind u think she will win May on the moody throwing stuff stomping paddy atm:rolleyes: :D

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Whilst I think it's incredibly sad that this woman can't have a child perhaps we should turn the argument on its head for a moment.

If the ownership of the fertilised eggs were shared between the two of them, neither one should be able to have claim to them - just because they're her eggs doesn't make them her fertilised eggs. If the bloke has an accident in the future whereby it damages his 'tackle' and he's only firing blanks - should he be allowed to use the fertilised eggs with a new partner, after all they're partly his. The answer of course, is no and there would be outrage if it was suggested but technically, he would have the same claim to them as this woman does.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Nothing. He doesn't want her to be the mother of his child. What's wrong with that?

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

You can't say for sure that the answer would definitely be 'No' Gayle, he would have to apply to the European Courts like she did I suppose, and we don't know how they would view it.

And Riq don't think it is very gentlemanly of you to mark down the post by Flash #35 as 'ridiculous' just because she had an opposite view to yourself.
Calling someone else's point of view as this or rubbish is the first rule of etiquette in a debate, and this is an interesting subject.

Never quite sure about the cliche that it isn't a woman's right to have children, just a privilege ... maybe I misunderstand it. If medical science just considered it a privilege, then feel there would be lots of women who wouldn't have had the children they so desired. :confused:

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Medical science has got a lot to answer for. Has it created a way to help infertile couples or has it created a monster????

The law tries desperately to keep up with medical science, as with each new discovery and procedure there has to be a law to ensure that there is no exploitation of the procedure. It is an extremely fine line that the legal, ethical and medical minds are treading in order to create legislation to cover all eventualities without offence.

Eg. the catholic faith believe that a fertilised egg is a life, yet as a non-catholic, I would personally not see a fertilised egg in that way. In this country a fetus, even at full term, has no rights in law until it is born and becomes a person. Yet in the USA a fetus has full rights and pregnant women can be imprisoned for damaging their fetus by drug misuse etc. in certain states.

Therefore, there is major disagreement worldwide about what constitutes a life and fertility laws have to try to consider and protect the potential for life. We only have to consider the differing opinions of the members on this site to see what a nightmare of a job it must be to make this legislation.

What many hospitals are also now seeing are couples who have become pregnant using fertility treatments, IVF, donor eggs, donor sperm etc. Many of these couples have medical problems which prevented natural conception, therefore, some of the women can have extremely dangerous, life threatening conditions when pregnant. We are seeing more and more women needing high dependency and intensive care during pregnancy and the maternal death rate has risen in the last 3 years.

It's a bit old fashioned but a long retired midwife, who was a mentor of mine, always said that we were opening a can of worms with fertility treatment. She reckoned that if a woman can't get pregnant naturally then there is a reason for it....... Even though I have seen a lot of sucessful pregnancies through fertility treatment, when I see the ones who become desperately ill, I think that maybe my old mentor had a point.

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

she's with someone else and hes single, wonder if thats why he didnt allow it:confused:
when i think about it if it was the other way round i suppose i would tell my ex to bog off too, after 5 years it is a long time.
hey well......

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

I suppose too Willow, that at the time this lady was very much in love with this man, and he with her obviously. She would never have taken into consideration the possibility that they would ever split, and that he would renade on his agreement in the future, no matter what type of counselling they originally had.

Love is blind, is it not ? :(

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Re: Woman loses final embryo appeal
 

Sure this would not be much of a consideration for the courts, unless he could put forward some sort of argument that she would not be a fit mother .. and that would have to be very strong and proven.

Why they split, I should imagine, would be irrelevant.