July 1st 92 years ago
 

On this day 92 years ago, 125 men from Greater Accrington lay dead on the Somme battlefield, a further 208 men were wounded.

Retlaw

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

A sad fact that we must never forget, these men fought and died for us!!!

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

A very sad fact that must never be forgotten.
The question is, have we learnt a lesson from their deaths?

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

very sad, very brave lads, n no polly don't think we learned much.:(

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

Respect is due, they gave their lives for us.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

Thank you for this timely reminder Retlaw.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

A poignant extract from Mike Hardings song "The Accrington Pals"



Blue sky shining on a perfect day,
A lark was singing, high above the Somme.
Brothers, pals and fathers lay
Watching that sweet bird sing in the quiet of the dawn.
And they all went walking out towards the howling guns,
Talking and laughing, calmly walking on,
Believing in the lies that
Left them dying in the mud,
And they're lying, lying, lying still -
The Accrington Pals.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

We must always remember their sacrfice so that we could live our lives freely.

Another thing, we should not allow authorities to tamper with the history of our country, and the conflicts it fought. Recently the authorities have tried to remove the references in the history books to the Holocaust....because it may offend Muslims ......they do not believe it happened.......This despite photographic evidence collected at the time by allied troops.

Respect the war dead of all the conflicts fought by our brave men.
Despise the wars, but respect the men.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

By we, do you mean the people of this country, or the IDIOTS that
rule our lives.

Retlaw.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

I think she probably means the people of this country and not the idiots who rule our lives

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

All very very sad, have just been looking at some of the memorials at Townley Hall and wondering if we have learnt anything from it. I cannot understand how twenty years later they went and did it again.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

I meant all of us.
My father was in WWII and he always said that he had wasted his youth and his friends had wasted their lives if war ever happened again. Obviously he was disappointed

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

The Accrington Pals have a great web site, as no doubt many of you know ... and in it is a transcript of the battalion war diary for the day of July 1, 1916 http://www.pals.org.uk/pals-diary I think that the terse, matter-of-fact way in which it records the heroism and tragedy of that day is more evocative than any poem, or monument. I'm glad this thread was posted. No one in Accrington, or from Accrington should ever forget the bravery of those men.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

Sorry my link didn't seem to work ... but the Pals' web site is well worth a visit for those of you who haven't already been there .... there is even an old movie clip of the Pals marching past.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

I have a copy of that film, managed to freeze frame it and identified
several of the men as they marched over West End Oswaldtwistle on August 1st 1915. Then I digitally copied them, removed all the blurring, touched them up, they are now in the William Turner collection.

The war diaries I obtained copies of them from Kew, they have been transcribed as near as possible. They are now in Accrington Library, there is also a copy in Fulwood Museum.

That pals web site does not list all the Accrington Pals, several are missing, and that does not include the many errors on that site. I have the names of over 4000 men who served in the 11th Battalion East Lancs Regiment. Since Bill Turner died, I have found 11 more, three of them last week.

Retlaw.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

Just as an aside, and it is something worth considering for any community impacted by that terrible day, July the first in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, is Memorial Day, a day on which Newfoundlanders remember the heroism of the First Newfoundland Regiment, a unit which, like the Pals, was a regiment formed of friends and brothers. The University in St. John's Nfld is called Memorial University to honor the memory of the men slaughered on July 1. The Newfoundlanders attacked at Beaumont Hamel, very close to Serre, where the Pals went over the top. Not that it is any of my business any more, but I think it would be a great idea, if every year on July 1, there was some formal recognition in Accrington and district of what those men of the Pals did. After all, the Accrington Pals are the most famous of the Pals battallions.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

Eric - the kind words regarding the site are much appreciated. The war diary entry for 1 July 1916 - my own transcript, I should add! - can be found at:
http://www.pals.org.uk/pals_diary.htm

It's almost inevitable that a project of this size will contain errors. I'd hope that anyone who sees a mistake would wish to let me know so that it can be corrected.

Andrew

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

What intrigues me about the war diary is that added sentence, mentioned in your note. Editing of war diaries and unit records in general, and cabinet minutes, etc. is troubling. However, in this case, there may be some truth in the addition of the sentence. In (and I think I am correct) Martin Middlebrooks fine book on the first day on the Somme, the author does mention that there were eye-witness accounts of some members of the Pals reaching their objective ... altho' it is not clear if the added sentence in the war diary is the source Middlebrook uses, or if there were actual accounts, other than this.

There is an interesting appendix to this book which lists the battaliions fighting on that day according to the number of casualties they suffered ... in this list the Pals come very high at number 5 ... (the dubious honor of being number 1 belongs to the 10th Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment, with the 1st Newfoundland Regiment holding down #2). A terrible day.

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

[quote=Eric;601411]What intrigues me about the war diary is that added sentence, mentioned in your note. Editing of war diaries and unit records in general, and cabinet minutes, etc. is troubling. However, in this case, there may be some truth in the addition of the sentence. In (and I think I am correct) Martin Middlebrooks fine book on the first day on the Somme, the author does mention that there were eye-witness accounts of some members of the Pals reaching their objective ... altho' it is not clear if the added sentence in the war diary is the source Middlebrook uses, or if there were actual accounts, other than this.

Each Battalion had its own war diary, as did each division, some were not written up till days later.

Even Rickmans battle report shows discrepancies.

9am Cpl Rigby (wounded) belonging to 1st wave states that 7 of his platoon got into the German 1st line & held it for 20 mins. Captain Livesey was wounded.

11.25am Pte Glover 1st wave (servant) of Captain Livesey states 1st wave encountered heavy M.G. rifle, grenade and bombs in crossing no mans land.

Private Glovers account differs in so much that he could NOT have reported to Col Rickman, Glover was with Captain Livesey when they entered the German trenches, Livesey shot 5 Germans with his revolver, the Germans receiving reinforcements, Captain Livesey and Pte Glover withdrew to the shelter of shell hole, another shell landed close by, when Glover recovered he felt around in the dark but could not find Captain Livesey. Glover then made his way back to the British lines.

So who did Rickman talk to that morning.

Retlaw

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

[quote=Retlaw;601424]I don't think anyone will ever know ... I suspect that everyone who survived those terrible minutes, was to some degree in shock ... I am aware that all units, had to keep diaries .... this according to King's Regulations ... and many unit commanders also kept diaries ... Haig's diary was probably the grossest piece of self-justifying fiction to come out of the war ... the problem with much archival material in the UK is that much of it has been edited so that it conforms to the Official Histories of the war ... there are some interesting observations on this is Denis Winter's recent book, "Haig's Command: A Reassesment." In order to find uncorrupted material, Winter had to use archives in Canada and Australia. Canada and Australia played such and important role in the war, and acted as semi-independent commands (the Canadian Corps, which was actually the size of an Army, always fought as a unit) ... the Canadian and the Australian govts. received copies of all important documents relating to the war ... (there is even a record of the incident where Robert Borden, the Canadian PM, grabbed Lloyd George by the lapels and shook him ... I believe it has something to do with 3rd Ypres, and heavy Canadian casualties)

Enough rambling ... :rolleyes:

Re: July 1st 92 years ago
 

Surfing around the web is fascinating .... I just wanted to check on the population of Accrington; so, I went to the Wikipedia entry, and, glancing thro' I noticed a comment that the old Accy Corporation Transport buses were painted in the Regimental colors of the Pals, and that the mudguards were painted black as a tribute to those who fell ... all the times that I road those lurching old Leylands and I never realized this.