Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942041)

Will this poll influence your vote tonight.

Originally Posted by Benipete (Post 942039)

I never had an issue with the original concept of trading partners but I do object to our laws being made in Brussels by unelected bureaucrats.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 942056)

Thats a damn good post, i'm of the same mind, always was, shame M.P.s of all persuasions can't or won't grasp that many who do give a damn are now sick to the backteeth of Brussels n all it now entails.:(

Originally Posted by JCB (Post 942138)

I wouldn't vote because I support rule by our Parliamentary system , in which referendums should have no place .

As for the EU , with all its faults , I await to see an alternative that would work in practice , and would be beneficial to the country .

If someone can show me such a viable alternative I will give it due regard .

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942147)

I agree. There is no out position. There is no alternative. Norway pay and don't have a say. To put at risk jobs and trade now is reckless, a total distraction and at this critical moment, undermines European growth which is already hitting the UK hard.

I would point out that when 60-70% thought we should take military action against Bin Laden I was in a small minority when I pointed out the body bags that would come home.

It is about believing in something and sticking to it until empirical evidence suggests otherwise. I believe on balence a reformed Europe is better for Hyndburn and according to YouGov, so do the majority (47%). I am prepared to lose votes - on a matter of principle - to do what I believe is right for the place I live.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942152)

Er...aren't the for and against arguments a little pointless Graham?

If people aren't able to decide for themselves, and their opinions made known...by voting in a referendum.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 942153)

There's Labour MPs that are rebelling against the whip. I hope Graham comes round and does the same.

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942147)

I agree. There is no out position. There is no alternative. Norway pay and don't have a say. To put at risk jobs and trade now is reckless, a total distraction and at this critical moment, undermines European growth which is already hitting the UK hard.

I would point out that when 60-70% thought we should take military action against Bin Laden I was in a small minority when I pointed out the body bags that would come home.

It is about believing in something and sticking to it until empirical evidence suggests otherwise. I believe on balence a reformed Europe is better for Hyndburn and according to YouGov, so do the majority (47%). I am prepared to lose votes - on a matter of principle - to do what I believe is right for the place I live.

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942147)

Norway pay and don't have a say. .

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942155)

Are there?

That hasn't been announced.

Good for them.

It's not just the Tories who have the courage to do what's right for democracy.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 942160)

Quite a few Labour MPs. Will post the number when the vote happens. Steve McCabe (former Labour whip) said that as it was a backbench debate "I'm entitled to vote how I damn well like!"

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 942160)

Quite a few Labour MPs. Will post the number when the vote happens. Steve McCabe (former Labour whip) said that as it was a backbench debate "I'm entitled to vote how I damn well like!"

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 793049)

From Left Foot Forward.
Exposé of Daniel Hannan’s “Ten reasons to leave the EU”

Tory MEP Daniel Hannan, writing in yesterday’s Telegraph, has laid out what he claims are “Ten reasons to leave the EU”. Left Foot Forward rebuts each of Mr Hannan’s points:
1. Since we joined the EEC in 1973, we have been in surplus with every continent in the world except Europe. Over those 27 years, we have run a trade deficit with the other member states that averages out at £30 million per day.
Trade is a two-way operation and Britain’s trade with other EU countries has risen from about a third of our trade when we first joined to nearly 60 per cent now, despite the huge increase in the purchasing power of China, India, and oil producing countries in that time. The fastest growth rates of UK exports in recent years have been to the new EU Member States. 3½ million UK jobs are dependent on the export of goods and services to the EU.
If we were out of the EU, there would have even less likelihood of selling UK manufactured products to other EU countries, so the figures would be worse.

2. In 2010 our gross contribution to the EU budget will be £14 billion. To put this figure in context, all the reductions announced by George Osborne at the Conservative Party Conference would, collectively, save £7 billion a year across the whole of government spending.
Hannan is guilty of sleight of hand here by talking about “gross contribution”. Once the rebate is taken into account, our net contribution is £3.3bn in 2009-10 (see UK Budget 2009, Table 9C, footnote) – about £1 per week per person. Some of this finances things like infrastructure development in the poorer EU countries, which British firms regularly win tenders for.
The EU budget is just over 1 per cent of EU-wide Gross National Income, and 1/40th of public spending in total EU-wide. The Department for Work and Pensions, for example, has an annual budget of more than £100 billion – that’s about the same as the entire EU budget, just from one UK government department.

3. On the European Commission’s own figures, the annual costs of EU regulation outweigh the advantages of the single market by €600 to €180 billion.
Hannan takes no account of where common EU rules actually cut costs for businesses. By having one set of rules for the common market of 27 countries and 450 million people, EU legislation reduces costs for businesses. For example, a firm can register a trademark once, valid throughout the EU, without having to go through 27 different sets of national rules, form-filling and fee paying. A lorry taking British exports to Italy used to need over 20 documents to present at frontiers. Thanks to EU legislation this is now down to one.
Another example, the Payment Services Directive, guarantees fair and open access to payments markets and increases consumer protection. Currently each Member State has its own rules on payments, and the annual cost of making payments through these fragmented systems is as much as 2-3 per cent of GDP. Payment service providers are effectively blocked from competing and offering their services throughout the EU. Removal of these barriers is estimated to save the EU economy €28 billion per year overall.
Indeed, a European Commission study in 2002 showed that EU GDP is around 2 per cent higher than it would be without the Single Market, equivalent to a benefit of £20bn for the UK economy (or about £1,000 per family every year). The single market gives all UK businesses access to a market of 450 million consumers. Perhaps this explains why, in a recent Ipsos Mori poll which interviewed 102 executives from Britain’s largest businesses, 78 of them replied that the single market had been helpful to UK business.
Hannan also misses the point because he assumes that all regulation is bad. Of course, some regulation imposes costs, and these should be removed if there is no justification. But most regulations have clear benefits such as saving money in the future, protecting workers for harm or loss of life, and protecting the environment. Many would also have been implemented at national level if they did not exist at EU level (though at greater costs if divergent national rules fragmented the single market).
Europeans need and want social protection. Things like maternity and paternity leave, right to paid holiday, those sorts of things. Abolishing all rules of the single market implies a total erosion of workers’ rights – for example, the costs to cigarette companies by making them label their products as dangerous are outweighed by the benefits to public health and long-term savings for the health service. Nutritional labelling protects consumers with allergies and informs consumers about the food they eat. The list goes on.

4. The Common Agricultural Policy costs every family £1200 a year in higher food bills.
If Hannan thinks that the alternative to the CAP is that Britain (almost alone in the industrialised world) would no longer subsidise its farmers, he is living in a dreamland; only one thing would be worse than the CAP – it is 27 national agricultural policies, each trying to out-subsidise the other. It makes much more sense to reform CAP by remaining in the EU and reforming it from within.
It should also be noted that the cost of CAP has steadily declined as a proportion of the EU budget from over 70 per cent two decades ago to around 35 percent now. It has switched from market intervention to direct payments to farmers similar to the old UK system.

5. Outside the Common Fisheries Policy, Britain could reassert control over its waters out to 200 miles or the median line, which would take in around 65 per cent of North Sea stocks.
Because fish stay within British territorial waters and never leave?! How exactly do you stop fish swimming from one country’s waters to another? Like it or not, the only way to conserve fish stocks and save what is left of our fish is through joint agreement. The North Sea is already terribly over-fished, and common rules are vital to ensure sustainability of fisheries.
The EU, it is true, does need to reform its fisheries policy, making sure less fish are thrown dead overboard – but fish themselves do not respect borders, hence the need for supranational decision making. And, as with the CAP, the more isolationist, the more extreme the Tories’ position, the less likely they are to influence it.

6. Successive British governments have refused to say what proportion of domestic laws come from Brussels, but a thorough analysis by the German Federal Justice Ministry showed that 84 per cent of the legislation in that country came from the EU.
This is plainly nonsense, both the claim that the Government “have refused to say” the proportion of laws that come from Brussels, and the figure he quotes. The House of Commons Library states that only 9.1 per cent of UK laws stem from the EU.

7. Outside the EU, Britain would be free to negotiate much more liberal trade agreements with third countries than is possible under the Common External Tariff.
But Britain will be in a much weaker bargaining position vis-a-vis other countries than when we bargain with the whole clout of the worlds largest market behind us. And what of the tariffs that would be imposed on UK trade with the EU were we to leave? The UK is a country of 60 million people that is reliant on imports. The EU is a market of almost 500 million people, and can negotiate in the World Trade Organisation at a similar level to the USA, China, India etc. Leaving the EU would decrease the UK’s power to negotiate internationally, not increase it.

8. The countries with the highest GDP per capita in Europe are Norway and Switzerland. Both export more, proportionately, to the EU, than Britain does.
Both Norway and Switzerland have to accept EU market legislation with no say in shaping it. Both contribute to the EU budget (more per capita net contributions than the UK!). Both are small countries with very special features: massive oil reserves for Norway and a unique banking sector for Switzerland.
These countries are also – to all intents and purposes – in the EU single market. Norway, for example, implements all legislation for the single market (labour rights included) as it is in the European Economic Area (EEA).

9. Outside the EU, Britain could be a deregulated, competitive, offshore haven.
So, offshore banking is our future! Does Mr Hannan seriously, seriously, still believe that?! And in these times of financial crisis as well.

10. Oh, and we’d be a democracy again.
So what are we now? Is Hannan questioning his own democratic legitimacy? The EU is, far and away, the most democratic of all the international structures we belong to. It has its own directly elected Parliament, Charter of Rights and Court. Compare that to the IMF, World Bank, NATO, OECD, WTO etc. It should also be borne in mind that the Treaty of Lisbon, opposed by Hannan, for the first time gives countries the right to leave the EU and improves its democracy.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 942173)

I've got t'telly on for the live dabate and I'm currently counting about a dozen labour MP's in the chamber, with a few more Ulster Unionists sat further along. There appears to be about 50 or 60 Tories on their back benches. It's been like that for most of this afternoon and this evening. From what I've heard of the debates, the pro-ref's have absolutely thrashed the opposition....but the vote has yet to come. So watch what happens in the next hour as the bars within Westminister empty and they all pile in to defeat the motion.

If this reminds me of 'owt, it is of the scenes in Tripoli 6 months ago when the Bengazi boys rose up and the Mad Dog let loose his troops and ordered his supporting mob on to the streets with a few subtle treats. For Gaddafi and his family, read Cameron, Clegg & Milliband; for his mob and hired mercenaries, read those spineless backbenchers.

I think I'll emigrate to Libya - they know more about democracy there than the rotten, corrupt regime which masquerades as a democratic government here. And of course, they're not a member of the EU.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 942176)

The chamber is starting to fill up now. The vote can't be that far away - I wonder how many of 'em will be drunk when they lurch through the division lobby?

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 942184)

Some clown has just argued that he wants a referendum, but not now. A few of 'em have said something similar. It reminds me of the appeasement debates in the same place back in the 1930's - but for Berlin, read Brussels. they're saying do nowt now and hope the problem will go away. The reality is, the longer we leave it, the worse it's going to get.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 942186)

Just heard the call - formal division. I think the 'Aye' vote is going to be a bit bigger than the government planned for.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942187)

Like was said, if the government introduced e-petitions, in order to give ordinary people more power, it should have been a free vote.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942190)

“When your neighbour's house is on fire, your first impulse should be to help them put out the flames, not least to protect your own house”
David Cameron.

Er...yes. If you're a bit stupid.

The correct thing to do is to firstly evacuate your own family safely.

Then dial 999, and let them deal with it professionally.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942196)

111 men and women who can hold their heads up tonight.

Politicans who believe in democracy.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942205)

Graham Jones has just this moment tweeted that with 83 Tory rebels it's a 'disaster' for the Conservatives.

No Graham, with only 111 M.P.'s voting that people are allowed their voice in a referendum, it's a disaster for democracy.

Carry on.

You make your politically spun hay whilst the sun shines.

There's dark, threatening clouds on the horizon.

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 942207)

Eh? Where's his logic on this one. If 'owt, it's a disaster for Labour, whose supporters are just as anti-EU as the Tories - if not more. The electorate will have alot more respect for those who have truly represented them than for any spineless and gutless yes man who is simply concerned about his own political future, and that will be reflected in the next election.

I think it's time Mr Jones took a chill-pill and went to bed. The excitement of the day has plainly got to him.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 942209)

What Mr Jones should have tweeted was the fact its a disaster fer democracy,n from my standpoint he should be ashamed.:(

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942220)

Plus, as well as never again voting for any politican that didn't/doesn't actively support an E.U. referendum, I shall actively support and campaign for those who oppose them, and who do support democracy.

True, small fry.

Just one nutter, and his one vote.

But I'm a nutter with one hell of a big gob.

Which I'll use to shout LOUD.

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 942229)

Obviously from the tone of Graham Jones's merry little quips on twitter he feels it's a good night's work. Ingratiated himself with his political masters and scored a few cheap points against the Tories. Job done.

I would suggest that there will be consequences for him and others further down the line. When our rulers in Brussels have forced us to provide a full range of benefits to any EU citizen who pitches up here whether or not they've worked in or have any connection with this country and this is allied with an expansion to take in a number of Eastern European states, anti-EU sentiment will be on the rise. And people will not forget this night's work from Mr Jones and his ilk.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942190)

“When your neighbour's house is on fire, your first impulse should be to help them put out the flames, not least to protect your own house”
David Cameron.

Er...yes. If you're a bit stupid.

The correct thing to do is to firstly evacuate your own family safely.

Then dial 999, and let them deal with it professionally.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 942240)

When yeh look at this a little deeper, what the majority of MPs are saying is- They regard the British Public "Too Stupid" to know whats best fer em,:( i sincerly hope people aint that stupid,they forget this night!:(

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 942229)

Obviously from the tone of Graham Jones's merry little quips on twitter he feels it's a good night's work. Ingratiated himself with his political masters and scored a few cheap points against the Tories. Job done.

I would suggest that there will be consequences for him and others further down the line. When our rulers in Brussels have forced us to provide a full range of benefits to any EU citizen who pitches up here whether or not they've worked in or have any connection with this country and this is allied with an expansion to take in a number of Eastern European states, anti-EU sentiment will be on the rise. And people will not forget this night's work from Mr Jones and his ilk.

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 942254)

Been reading a lot of what the British press is saying about this bs ... what a bunch of arrogant bastards those politicians are! What total disregard for what the British people think .... Labour as bad as, if not worse than the suppositories ...

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942256)

Exactly.

Labour are crowing, saying the Tories are split.

It's even more depressing that there were so few Labour M.P.'s prepared to do the right thing.

They just come across as mindless morons, with no credibilty at all, but they're too stuck up their own arrogant arses to see that.

There are no winners tonight, only losers.

The people of this country lost.

Lost the chance for their voice to be heard.

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 942258)

I don't believe that it is the last chance for change ... this thing isn't just going to go gently anywhere soon ... the worms are out of the can; the fecal matter has intersected with the swiftly spinning object; the egg man has ... well, you get the picture, as I see it anyway. What surprises me is that Labour seems to be treating the whole thing as a matter of petty political posturing. The only politicians who are acting out of princple are many tory backbenchers:eek:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942260)

You're right.

One battle down, but the fight for people to have their opinions counted is still on.

Swelled by even more people now, after the shameful attack on democracy we witnessed yesterday.

The idiots in the Labour party are gleefully twittering that what happened has split the Tory party.

Little realising there's another split.

The whole of the Labour party, with the majority in the rest of the country.

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 942202)

About 80 Tory's voted for it and about 18 Labour I think. Official figures/which way individuals voted will be available tomorrow.

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 942246)

Sorry Steve but has that not been happening for the last god knows how many years? Or have I been reading it wrong? Why are folks so desperate to move here when things are so bad? Oh yeah our benefits system is laughable:mad:

Originally Posted by andrewb (Post 942271)

Wasn't far off. 81 Tory, 19 Labour, 1 Lib Dem.

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 942273)

No, Bernie, there are some restrictions on benefits claimed by EU citizens moving here including a "right to reside" test. This is in danger of being swept away in a move which it is estimated will cost us mugs an extra £2.5 billion a year.

Brussels threatens to sue Britain to let in 'benefit tourists' - Telegraph

Remember that when Graham Jones comes asking for your vote at the next election. :mad:

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942214)

From the smug political spin, I'm just making a wild guess our M.P. voted against us having our say in a referendum.

As stated earlier, I will never again vote for anyone who doesn't actively support a referendum on E.U. membership.

So, even though I've voted Labour ever since I first could, in 1983, other than voting for Ken Livingstone as an independent, and for Britcliffe, once tactically, so I could perhaps help Graham's chances, it's a http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...sZBfwK797DU5yO from me.

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 942229)

Obviously from the tone of Graham Jones's merry little quips on twitter he feels it's a good night's work. Ingratiated himself with his political masters and scored a few cheap points against the Tories. Job done.

I would suggest that there will be consequences for him and others further down the line. When our rulers in Brussels have forced us to provide a full range of benefits to any EU citizen who pitches up here whether or not they've worked in or have any connection with this country and this is allied with an expansion to take in a number of Eastern European states, anti-EU sentiment will be on the rise. And people will not forget this night's work from Mr Jones and his ilk.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942276)

Anyone from the Labour party is free to p.m. me for my address.

They can help save the rain forests by not posting anything through my door, and also save themselves getting a massive headache, as I'd loudly tell them where they can go.

Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 942248)

Maybe you should know the view taken by conspiracy theorists :D

The top politicians in all European countries are 'obliged';) to comply with the long term planning towards the New World Order (world government). United States of Europe is a step towards that end.

So their attempts to salvage the sinking ship of the EU is understandable.
They all have had 'offers that can't be refused'

The real control is in the hands of the Rothschild dynasty - the bwankers.

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 942353)

"Yes Minister" wasn't far off the mark with it's idea that the MP follows instruction from those who work for him.

If you put a frog in a pan of boiling water it will jump out. If you put a frog in a pan of cold water and gently heat it the frog will be lulled into a false sense of security and end up being boiled to death.

The Common Market was our pan of cold water and now it's getting to boiling point with the EU and nobody is jumping out.

I'm beginning to sound like Eric Cantona! :eek:

Originally Posted by Taggy (Post 942283)

When you put the Party before the People Graham...you show yourself in your true colours!

This is much more of a disaster for Labour than you think..but you will find out down the line! At least some of the tories displayed bottle.

Lib/Dems...well they already sold their souls anyway.

Bet Nigel Farage is having a right old chuckle!

Best Regards - Taggy

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942420)

Labour's promise at the last election was NO to an EU referendum. You may not like it, but I did what I promised. I hope you can concede that at the very least.

Whatever my own feelings I don't think knee jerk opportunistic u-turns are the answer. Besides there was no credible argument, just a disorganised incoherent ramble from the likes of Mr Nuttall, Mr Jackson and Co.

In the end it is about taking the tough and unpopular decisions but which are in the areas best interests. I believe without a shadow of doubt I did that. Some may disagree and they have their vote at future elections. I have said this many times, on these occasions, votes don't inform my decision. I expect to lose on the cross on belief and principle.

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942420)

Labour's promise at the last election was NO to an EU referendum. You may not like it, but I did what I promised. I hope you can concede that at the very least.

Whatever my own feelings I don't think knee jerk opportunistic u-turns are the answer. Besides there was no credible argument, just a disorganised incoherent ramble from the likes of Mr Nuttall, Mr Jackson and Co.

In the end it is about taking the tough and unpopular decisions but which are in the areas best interests. I believe without a shadow of doubt I did that. Some may disagree and they have their vote at future elections. I have said this many times, on these occasions, votes don't inform my decision. I expect to lose on the cross on belief and principle.

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942420)

Labour's promise at the last election was NO to an EU referendum. You may not like it, but I did what I promised. I hope you can concede that at the very least.

Whatever my own feelings I don't think knee jerk opportunistic u-turns are the answer. Besides there was no credible argument, just a disorganised incoherent ramble from the likes of Mr Nuttall, Mr Jackson and Co.

In the end it is about taking the tough and unpopular decisions but which are in the areas best interests. I believe without a shadow of doubt I did that. Some may disagree and they have their vote at future elections. I have said this many times, on these occasions, votes don't inform my decision. I expect to lose on the cross on belief and principle.

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942420)

Labour's promise at the last election was NO to an EU referendum. You may not like it, but I did what I promised. I hope you can concede that at the very least.

Whatever my own feelings I don't think knee jerk opportunistic u-turns are the answer. Besides there was no credible argument, just a disorganised incoherent ramble from the likes of Mr Nuttall, Mr Jackson and Co.

In the end it is about taking the tough and unpopular decisions but which are in the areas best interests. I believe without a shadow of doubt I did that. Some may disagree and they have their vote at future elections. I have said this many times, on these occasions, votes don't inform my decision. I expect to lose on the cross on belief and principle.

Originally Posted by Taggy (Post 942442)

The credible argument Graham, is that it is what the vast majority of the public want including your constituents! Its not knee jerk reaction when you give the public a chance to express their opinion on something that is so radically different to what they voted on when they voted to become part of the then "Common Market"

The majority of today's electorate have never had this opportunity...i'm 54 years old & was too young at the time. The goalposts have moved so many times that the agreements in place today are unrecognisable from what the British people voted on before.

I dont for one minute believe that on THIS occasion you have done what you think is best for the people of Hyndburn. You have put your party before the people, some politicians always feel quite comfortable in early & mid term periods of the parliamentary cycle, however the public have longer memories than are given credit for, certainly if they feel they are being treated as irrelevant!

Best Regards - Taggy

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942420)

Labour's promise at the last election was NO to an EU referendum. You may not like it, but I did what I promised. I hope you can concede that at the very least.

Whatever my own feelings I don't think knee jerk opportunistic u-turns are the answer. Besides there was no credible argument, just a disorganised incoherent ramble from the likes of Mr Nuttall, Mr Jackson and Co.

In the end it is about taking the tough and unpopular decisions but which are in the areas best interests. I believe without a shadow of doubt I did that. Some may disagree and they have their vote at future elections. I have said this many times, on these occasions, votes don't inform my decision. I expect to lose on the cross on belief and principle.

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 939097)

I personally have no objection to a simple in out vote. Settles the issue democratically.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 942458)

Since posting this on October 10th.




What happened to the democracy you talked about?

At least attempt at being consistent in what you say.

Folk round here aren't half as stupid as you seem to think.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 942459)

A clear demonstration then,of a vote fer the party n sod the people.:mad: I missed that quote was away until Oct 11th

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942420)

Labour's promise at the last election was NO to an EU referendum. You may not like it, but I did what I promised. I hope you can concede that at the very least.

Whatever my own feelings I don't think knee jerk opportunistic u-turns are the answer. Besides there was no credible argument, just a disorganised incoherent ramble from the likes of Mr Nuttall, Mr Jackson and Co.

In the end it is about taking the tough and unpopular decisions but which are in the areas best interests. I believe without a shadow of doubt I did that. Some may disagree and they have their vote at future elections. I have said this many times, on these occasions, votes don't inform my decision. I expect to lose on the cross on belief and principle.

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 942488)

So your actions yesterday were a noble act of self-sacrifice...nothing to do with keeping in favour with the Labour party hierarchy, of course.

And those Labour MPs like Kate Hoey, Frank Field etc who voted for a referendum are of course, shameless opportunists.

Just how daft do you think we are, Graham?

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942538)

My view is...

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942538)

You have a principalled view and in your case it is a left wing credible view unless you have swapped sides.

Originally Posted by g jones (Post 942539)

*I note *today’s Ecofin meeting has been cancelled & more than £18bn was wiped off the value of shares in London in just 20 minutes when EU officials also warned of the *consequences of the crises engulfing Europe. An EU in out referendum would have been a tragedy at this time. Bare in mind the low value of shares is hitting retiring pensioners hard. Playing this kind of politics with people's lives is not right.

And out the dust the truth emerges. I have repeated this many times. Labour voters should run a million miles from Euroskeptisism.

Cameron, Gove and Co are trying now to buy off Eurosceptics with threat to employment rights’ such as maternity and paternity leave, paid holidays, agency workers rights, TUPE etc..

Whe you are privileged to be on the inside, these are the things you see more clearly and decisively.

I can understand Tories and right wingers being anti EU. Working class people should not be supporting the Jacksons, the Holloways and the Nuttalls. With the dust settling and the Tory party fighting in public over the issue, we should take a good long hard look at the people we shod be worried about, Tory EU rebels and what they have really meant by anti EU.

Their mistaken idea (fundamentally flawed actually) is a Britain that is isolated from Europe on protections, employment, food and drink, environment where as Redwood stated (and it says is it all) "we can still buy German cars and French wine".

I believe it is common sense for working people to step away from supporting these arguments.