Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

I've been a Tory all my adult life, I'm not rich, but maybe I have never suffered from that the old downfall of envey, I don't give a monkeys what joe blogs has got, don't bother me, but it sure as hell bothers a lot of other people, i just feel sorry for them

I am happy to say that envy is something I don't suffer from either.

May I just say I have always admired the fact that you almost have the mental prowess of the mayor of London, tell me though, have you ever beaten him in a game of Wiff-Waff?

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

What's tax avoidance to do with welfare benefits?

Two different thing.

Though if it is being mentioned, it was hardly something the last government bothered to tackle.

They were much too busy accepting massive donations from the mega rich, who benefited from the glaring loopholes in the system.

That's after they'd made Britain's tax system so attractive to the super rich, that every dodgy oligarch was just queueing up to move here, and take advantage of it.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Nothing at all, but I think it was thrown in to highlight the inequalites of life....which have been there since time immemorial........now this isn't going to change unless some government comes in makes some new rules and laws about the distribution of wealth.

Many of these wealthy people didn't start life rich(though I know that some did)their wealth was attained by hard work, perseverance and application.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Exactly Margaret, Mancie and co are very select in that department in their little world if you've got of your arse and grafted and made yourself a pot of money your a nasty Tory, never realised Sir Alec Ferguson had become an honoury member of of the Tory Party though, that one musthave passed be by :rolleyes:

Not exactly at all, i think you will find that the tax evasion thing was first mentioned by Taggy, hardly a person that can be grouped with, 'Mancie and co'.

I will try to explain for you, Taggy had introduced what is known as a parallel, in otherwords just as you wish to blame the small minority of lazy people claiming & fiddling benefits, with the unfortunate consequences of which, other narrow thinking people translate that to mean all claimants are lazy& fiddling.
There are some 'businessmen', that claim & fiddle their taxes, which has another group of narrow thinking people translating that as, all businessmen fiddle their taxes.
Both these groups of people are wrong, although a small minority of benefit claiments are 'fiddling' & a small minority of businessmen are 'fiddling', the majority in each case are honest and ordinary folk doing their best in life for themselves and their families.

Neither group should be tarred with the same brushes that stigmatise all.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Didn't mention tax evasion, twas the fact that Mancie always slags of anybody with a few quid of being a Tory, which has always been a load of crap, if only the rich and well heeled elected Tory governments, there would never have been one in history, its a fact that the ordinary man in the street elect Tory governments, but the likes of Mancie can't see that, to judge anybody on where they place a cross on a ballot paper, is at best misguided or at the worst political bigotry, in Mancies case it that second

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Maybe if we had all sat on our haunches, instead of getting up and going to work. things would be different.......none of us would have had a pot to.......well, you get my drift.

It was very interesting to note than those two who think the last government were so wonderful, and this one is such shwante,(oh and by the way Mancie, this isn't me endorsing the government...just noting facts) didn't mention the 5.2% uplift in benefits...to match the rate of inflation.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

A system of welfare benefits, that pays more than working for a living, is wrong.

That wasn't why it was introduced, and is unsustainable.

I've given examples, where people were helped back into work, and chose to go back on benefits, because they were better off.

The system is wrong, not necessarily the people who took advantage of it.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Agree i have said exactly the same fer years about immigrants,dont blame them,blame the system.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Undoubtedley it's wrong that someone is better off on benefits than working, if they are able to do so. Poverty was defined by the last Labour Government as a ‘household income below 60% of median income’. The median is the income earned by the household in the middle of the income distribution. I think benefit levels are calculated around this base.

It's easy to see that the problem arises from the choice of 60% of the median household income - those in lower income brackets will undoubtedly be better off on benefits unless two or more people work per household and they have low costs associated with work.

There will obviously be fluctuations in the spending power of money to take into account and the fact that people who work have costs -transport , child-care etc. so it must be quite a hard equation to balance -especially in the recent recession and considering the change in value of sterling etc. I can see that many will be border-line with what they can earn by working or in some cases even worse off...child-care is a big problem especially for single parents and can cost an exhorbitant amount.

I didn't realise that you could give up work and choose to go back on benefits -I thought that if you voluntarily gave up a position of work you automatically lost your right to any financial assistance, at least for a certain length of time...maybe I'm wrong.

As to the system being flawed that seems to be pretty obvious - in order to make it pay for people to work it is necessary to shift the level of benefits lower than the 60% median income. That would of course lead to an outcry and increased levels of "relative" poverty (absolute poverty as described by Margaret P is much less common than it used to be.)

Hard to know where to start...but those who are able to work and receive benefits should perhaps have to do a certain number of hours a week of something like community service, in any case, to justify at least some of what they receive...

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Groove cant see the point in saving for retirement or having a pension because the care home will take it all anyway, giving him the same treatment as someone who has been on benefits all their lives.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Groove should think carefully about the period between retirement and entering the care home. It could be 20-30 years.

The happiest time of your life can be after you finish work. You have the time and health to enjoy a life of leisure, so it is important to have a few bob put by.

Gynn can speak with experience as someone who DID save for a pension and retirement, and is now enjoying life to the full.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

'MILLIONS of benefit claimants are better off living on handouts than getting a job, a Government report confirmed yesterday.'
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: You are better off on benefits

'Peter Davey, 35, a father of seven, gave up work in administration nine years ago because he realised he would be better off on state handouts.'
Family on £42,000 a year benefits because they are 'better off unemployed' - Telegraph

'An unemployed 22-year-old who featured in a BBC news report as a victim of benefits cuts has admitted he doesn’t work because he’s better off on the dole.'
Man portrayed as 'victim' of the cuts by BBC says 'I'm better off on benefits' | Mail Online


A system, that makes it more financially rewarding to live on welfare benefits, than to work for an income, is wrong.


Period.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

[quote=mobertol;954745

Hard to know where to start...but those who are able to work and receive benefits should perhaps have to do a certain number of hours a week of something like community service, in any case, to justify at least some of what they receive...[/quote]

But there is a flaw in that solution, why would a council employ steet sweepers if the unemployed were going to do it to get their benefits?....or whatever it was that it was decided was the right job to 'earn' the benefits.

I don't know what the answer is...unless it is co-operatives growing stuff on allotments and then selling it on the market.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

I'll tell you what gynn groove might have a point really, my parents, like quite a lot of people in their generation were very thrifty and saved for their old age, but when they came to retire, they were unable to claim anything whereas those who had led the life of riley out on the beer every night and not saving a penny for that rainy day could claim the earth

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

John, I have done that too.....saved all of my life.... even if it was only a few bob...... if it was left over at the end of the week it went into the savings tin. Fat lot of good it has done me. But would I change it....No, I really find it very hard to ask for help of any kind.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

To be honest I was always like that, infect the last time I was in hospital, they refused to discharge me unless I agreed to accept that I needed help at home, but I'm now glad I did because it has made my life that much easier, even if it has cost me my independence

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

John, there comes a time I suppose, when you can no longer ignore a situation....fortunately, I haven't been there myself yet...but have helped others who have. I like helping out. It makes me feel useful.
The old lady next door, Ma, the old feller at the other side. I like to do for them in the hope that perhaps I won't need anyone to do things for me at any point.
By the way, how is George, your carer...the last time we heard, he was poorly in hospital.
I hope he is fully recovered now and looking after you well.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

George is doing quite well now Margaret, in fact he came out of hospital a week yesterday and popped round with his wife to see me on Saturday, he's a lot better, but it will be a while before he's back, but at least he's getting there and making good progress, wouldn't be surprised if he isn't reading this:D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Glad to hear he is on the mend. Thanks for the info.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

And yet, there is an argument to be made that it is not benefits that are too high, but wages that are too low. Or, that too many of the well-paid industrial jobs have been exported ... or full time jobs with benefits have been turned into part time jobs. A common tactic of corporations. It doesn't make any economic sense. In a consumer economy, cosumers have to consume ... sorry for being a tad tautological;); and in order to consume, they need money. If you take away most of the well-paid jobs, you have to make credit easier. This is how we got the NINJA loans in the states ... the ones that were a leading cause of the last recession. Or you have to pay large for benefits.


The growing inequality of incomes is what is at the root of riots and protests all over the world. CNN and Hilary Clinton would love us to believe that Egypt rose in revolution because they wanted freedom ... bs, they had enough of seeing Mubarak and his cronies stashing away billions, while many of the ordinary people could hardly make ends meet. Govenrments like the one in the UK will continue to give out billions in benefits in order to keep the poor quiet. There's no more Colosseum ... but there are 60" flat screens ... and cheap booze.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Whether benefits are too generous, or wages too low, is an irrelevance.

What we've seen happen over recent years is a broken, flawed system

The welfare state was a ground breaking concept.

It was created to help those, who through no fault of their own, were in genuine need.

To be able to chose to live on benefits, because it's better paid than working for a living, is wrong, and it was wrong for successive governments to allow this to happen.

I'm with Marg P, on what constitutes the definition of poverty.

To me that's not having enough food to give your children, no money to heat your home, and not having enough money to see a doctor, and buy medicine.

In my opinion you don't live in poverty if you have a house full of the latest 'must have' gadgets, many working families would struggle to afford to buy.

Why work when I can get £42,000 in benefits a year AND drive a Mercedes?

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

The system that is flawed is not the welfare system ... it is the tax system ... you mention that the welfare system is "funded by peoples' hard earned taxes" ... but it is not the taxes of all the people; missing are those who have a magical tax avoidance tree in the Caymans. The government is supporting the poor on the backs of the not quite, but almost poor.

And I can't agree with you and MargP on the definition of poverty. What you guys see as poverty closely resembles what I see when I watch late nite tv, and someone wants me to adopt a kid in Africa ... so you are saying that a First World Nation should adopt definitions of poverty more fitted to the Third World:confused: I prefer the Canadian, much more lenient, definition: A family in poverty is one which spends more than half its income in basic food and shelter.

Though the shelter could be an igloo;)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

No. I was actually refering to Britain pre-1945, before the creation of the welfare state, that we recognise today.

When people in this country did go hungry, cold, and even die, because of the lack of money.

If my nan, widowed at twenty, hadn't gone to work at the mill every morning, this being one of two jobs she had then, there wouldn't have been any food to give her child. The luxury of having anything new, clothes, toys, furniture etc, was unhead of.

Being able to work brings an independence of spirit.

My nan might have had nothing much materially back then, but she had bucket loads of that.

I'm not getting into a long drawn argument.

Mainly because nothing you can say will convince me that chosing to live off social benefits should be more profitable than working for a living.

The welfare state was created as a safety net for those who needed it.

Not as a hammock to laze away your days swinging in.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Yup ... don't think we are ever going to agree on this one ... oh well, there'll be other times;):D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

You mention well paid industrial jobs being exported, ya I can remember when we had a thriving car industry, ship building too, what happened, well we had the closed shop, where if the wrong person changed a light bulb the all shooting match were out on strike, so eventually companies got sick to the back teeth of the likes of Red Robbo, hold them to ransom and instead of investing in British industry they went elsewhere.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

your from a dinosaur age of politics blaming the unions just dont wash.lets have a look miners strike justified trying to save your community and well being is bad i dont think so, it was the greedy shareholder who thought globalisation would make them a packet there is only one reason why britain and europe are in a mess and thats greed.if they never got greedy we would have had real money to spend and greater taxes to collect.the multi nationals cut their nose to spite their face they are idiots do they not know people need money to buy their products.as tristun hunt said on wuestion time he hit the nail on the head .in the eighties the tories put thousands of workers on incapacity,now we have full generations of people who dont know what work is they started the rot by helping create mass unemployment in communities with their first round of cuts in the eighties i just keep getting a feeling of de ja vu cuts ,europe, union bashing,propoganda in the papers. the tories are out of their depth we are in for a very very bumpy ride.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

History repeats itself.
There are many reasons leading to the fall of the Roman empire, but one in particular seems very relevant to this thread.

Reason why the Roman Empire fell
extract -
"Reason why the Roman Empire fell - Unemployment of the Working Classes (The Plebs)
Cheap slave labor (eastern europeans?) in turn resulted in the unemployment of the the people of Rome who became dependent on hand-outs from the state. The Romans attempted a policy of unrestricted trade (EU?) but this led to working class Romans being unable to compete with foreign trade. The government were therefore forced to subsidize the working class Romans to make up the differences in prices. This resulted in thousands of Romans choosing just to live on the subsides sacrificing their standard of living with an idle life of ease. The massive divide between the rich and the poor increased still further. "

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

I think Jay will know this for definite, but i think you'll find that when the Roman Empire fell they had just had 13 years of a labour senate and Julius Brownius had just sold off all their gold. :D:D:D:D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Agreed on all counts.

But how can these people be eligible for benefits if they voluntarily leave paid employment? It should NOT be possible...:mad:

How they also have the nerve to tell their story in the papers is beyond me...presumably they receive a pretty big cheque. In this case the wife even had the brazen courage to lament a lack of holidays - unbelievable.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

I have read this and it makes no sense to me...nothing much new there then........maybe if it was punctuated properly it might have some sense in it...but do I want to be bothered?.....nah!

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

It does tend to repeat itself doesn't it - interesting paragon Margaret.

The over-extension of the Empire is perhaps similar to what is happening in the EU too.:rolleyes: I wonder if that is destined to fall.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

You'd think he might re-read when posted and edit a bit - comes over as a bit of a thoughtless rant....sorry:o

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Well if the Tories are out of their depth, Labour have drowned long ago, you just can't see can you, you plank, Labour have never in our history made a success of running this country, they've always made a pigs ear of it, if ever anybody was out of their depth it was the one eyed Jock and his little Darling the Burk and Hare of British politics. As for the Tories putting people on incapacity in the eighties :rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:incapacity claimants went from around 200,000 in 1997 to 550,000 in 2010, ever though of being a stand up comic C'mon, try the Edinburgh fringe

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Why on earth apologise? It is he who should apologise for subjecting us to the badly written, hardly punctuated, twaddle.
And I would like to say that I am being kind when I call it that.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Not a lot he can do about it though Mobertol he's nothing to think with;)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Wouldn't really know about that one Gordon, history wasn't my chosen subject, but if Julius Brownius did sell their gold, its quite in keeping with the antics of his scottish ancestor gormless Gordon:D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

I don't know him so I can't comment Jay. Was pulled up myself by Eric for a comma the other day;)

He comes across as passionate in what he says -he's obviously sure of his convictions but is not, i think, reflective by nature.

No nice spacing of his arguments to give the reader time to reflect or to gain time before delivering a punch-line...:D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Hello Mrs Malaprop - think you mean parallel?

Sorry couldn't resist - got my editor's/proofreader's hat on. ;)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Your not missing out believe me, ;)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

[QUOTE=susie123;955003]Hello Mrs Malaprop - think you mean parallel?

Sorry couldn't resist - got my editor's/proofreader's hat on. ;)[/QUOTE


TRANSITIVE VERB:
par·a·goned, par·a·gon·ing, par·a·gons
To compare; parallel.
To equal; match.

Means more-or-less the same thing Sue -I was actually translating from Italian.

"Paragonare" is the verb to compare...

Brain dead today...;) (Blame Bridget -she's had a bad week!:D)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Well the verb's a new one on me...

I see I shouldn't really criticise - made a total hash of the quote in that last post...

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

There are loads of English verbs out there going un-used, truly i only used it because I was translating back from Italian -not a good thing to do as it doesn't always work!

I have a great English dictionary/Thesaurus for when I do translations -gives you more variety, we tend to use the same words over, again and again, as most of us are generally lazy in our speech.:D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Just had a thought perhaps i could start a "Word of the day" thread in anything goes. Make it quite unusual and see how many people manage to use it in their posts that day -might be quite difficult to monitor though.

What do you reckon?

Could be a new game for all our Sesquipedalianists:eek::rolleyes:;):D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Nice idea... can't quite see how it would work.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Badly written, yes. Hardly puctuated, most definitely. Twaddle, hardly.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Well, if I can't make sense of it Eric, then as far as I am concerned it is twaddle.
To be honest, I could not be bothered trying to work out what he was saying.
I'm too bloody old to be wasting my time on such inconsequential rubbish.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

" You're from a dinosaur age of politics, blaming the Unions just doesn't wash.

Let's have a look at the miner's strike, a bad thing? I don't think so. It was justified, in that it was trying to save your community and well-being. It was the greedy share-holder who was the one that would make a packet through globalisation. There is only one reason why Britain and Europe are in a mess, and that is greed.

If they had never got greedy, we would have had more money to spend and greater taxes to collect. The multi-nationals cut off their noses to spite their faces, they are idiots. Do they not know that people need money to buy their products?

As Tristan Hunt said on Question Time, when he hit the nail on the head:
"In the Eighties, the Tory government put thousands of workers on incapacity benefit, now we have generations of people who don't know what work is."

They started the rot by helping to create mass unemloyment in communities, with their first round of cuts in the 1980's.
I just keep getting a feeling of dejà vù; Cuts, Europe, Union bashing and propaganda in the papers.

The Tories are out of their depth, we are in for a very, very bumpy ride."


This is what C'mon meant.

Not twaddle at all -just passionately expressed without punctuation!

I remember when the Tories had to bring down the un-employment figures back then and fiddled the numbers. They managed to knock off a million over night. The same thing has gone on ever since!

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

One is never too old to waste one's time.;) The way I interpret what he wrote is that in any labour/management dispute, or in any discussion of why British industry is, more or less, no more, it is wrong to blame only one side for the dispute, or for the loss of viable industries which provide well-paid, secure employment for the working class. Bashing the unions often obscures the fact that management needs a good swift kick in the plums too. From one set of prejudices, one blames unions for their greed and intransigence; and from another set, one blames management for their greed and intransigence.

But this is only an interpretation. His argument is a tad cluttered, but hardly "twaddle", or "inconsequential rubbish."

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Did you appreciate my translation, Eric?

I do actually translate English to English (can you believe that! )-usually what Europeans write though!!

Love your use of "plums" have noticed it before...;):D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

This definition of the word paragon is in the full Oxford English Dictionary, but it is archaic.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Left the UK back in the 80's Michael -I'm an old-fashioned (perhaps not archaic!) girl...!:D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Just out of curiosity, which dictionary are you quoting from?

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

I could not find this definition in the Concise Oxford Dictionary or Collins, only in the OED.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

total costs rose from £600 million in 1979 to £3500 million in 1997 your figures dont add up http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cp/CASEpaper26.pdf

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Eric, it WAS twaddle until it was translated.
I once took time to read a long diatribe of his to find that even when translated it made no sense and he contradicted himself several.........I told myself that this was the first and last time I was going to waste my presious time on someone who can't be bothered to post something that is readable, with some sort of translation.
Mobertol is a good bit younger than me...she has time on her side....which I (maybe) don't. My Thanks to you Dianne for the clearing of the fog.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Pray tell what it was in 2010 please, just to balance the argument;)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Ya Margaret, but there is still very low cloud over Scotland;)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

John....when did I inherit your keyboard?....just noticed a couple of glaring typos in there........must be because I am sat here in the gloom of this Sunday morning using 'Misers light'(daylight) instead of turning the bulbs on.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Margaret I keep trying to explain there's absolutely nothing wrong with my keyboard, its the person pushing the keys that's the problem;)

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

paragon (`pær�g�n) n. 1. a model of excellence; pattern:a paragon of virtue.2. a size of printer's type, approximately equal to 20 point. vBulletin. (tr.)3. Archaic.a. to equal or surpass.b. to compare.c. to regard as a paragon.[C16: via French from Old Italian paragone comparison, from Medieval Greek parakonž whetstone, from Greek parakonan to sharpen against, from PARA-1 + akonan to sharpen, from akone whetstone]

The above is from the Collins dictionary and thesaurus which has been on my computer for yonks. It does give the verb, but lists it as archaic.

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

This thread is infested with dictionary quotes.
I suggest this

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

I blame C'Mon myself:D

Re: Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling
 

Dense ;)