If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Would you spend it on HS1 and HS2 in an effort to close the North/South divide?
We don't have it spare so we'll have to borrow it(at 6%) and with cost over runs you can guarantee it will double and that's not counting inflation.
If you live on Manchester Station and work on the London station you'll save one hour out of two.
If you live and work an hour from each station you save one hour out of four. Is that so important?
They say people can't afford to live and work in London so the solution is to move them all up here to live but keep the jobs in London! So we won't get the jobs but Northern house prices will rocket as rich London businessmen sell their expensive homes and push up demand in the North.
The capacity will be 370,000 seats each way each day,do we really have anywhere near that number of people wishing to make that trip? And if we do the normal lines will have less passengers and need more subsidies.
Over half the cash value and saving to the country will be in time- somebodies time must be worth an awefull lot of money and as you can't spend time the economy will see no benefit.
The High Speed lines on the Continent don't just cross much bigger countries, they connect several countries so the time savings can be quite big. Not in this little country!

Wouldn't it be better to give 33(or 66?) Northern cities and towns £1 billion each to build state of the art business centres, research centres etc. with reduced rent, tax and cheap loans? Pull the jobs from the South to the people who already live here?
How about electrifying all the Northern lines to get rid of the slow diesels and upgrading the lines, get more carriages and stop the South sending their 30 year old trains to us so we can use them for another uncomfortable 30 years?

It seems to me to be a status, prestige project- Blair went to war in Iraq, Campbell builds HS1 and 2.
And who pays for the rich business men on their expensive, expenses claims tickets to save 1 hour? You, your children and their children.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

It aint even 1 hour saved,its around 50 mins, considering London is only 2 hrs 20 mins or so away on train these days, it seems to me the 33 Billion could be better spent in many other areas, :rolleyes: but still that may not be concentrating on rich businessmen.:rolleyes:

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

How long do you want it for?
I've got a wonga account don't mind helping you out short term.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

I don't like being in debt, Less.
Just lend me £1 billion for a few years.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

I'm not sure what I would do..........perhaps the first thing would be to make transport between cities cheaper. It is no damn good having a fine superfast rail service if it is too expensive to use.
I can see the sense of linking the cities, and it will do businesses in those cities no harm at all.

It is going to create some jobs while the infrastructure is being built....but then what?

I don't think giving 33 towns and cities a million each would be a great deal of good.......you don't get much infrastructure for a million quid these days.

I can see it causing much angst as the countryside is ripped up for track to be laid........for rich men to ride in style and comfort and save 50 minutes or so.
That doesn't answer your question Gordon, but that is as near as I can get.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

It would be 33 a billion not million margaret.;)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Basically it's London providing fast links for all the Northerners to go and spend money down there and leave none up here.

All they have done is copy the model set by LCC and Blackburn Council, build a bus station in Accrington so everybody in Accrington can get to Blackburn and Preston quicker to spend their brass ;)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

What's the rush to get to London ?

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

By the time the Northeners have paid for their HS ticket I don't think they'll have much left to spend in London, lancsdave.
Still, we could always go on Oxford Street begging- they say that pays quite well and we'd have to get the money to get home somehow.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

It pays in Accrington, maybe we could club together and pay for some one way tickets for our experienced town centre beggars :)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Really? I must come over there and try it. Less has already offered to lend me £1 billion but anything extra would be useful.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Seems pointless to me:confused: ... probably 'cause I come from a time when folks walked to work. If they wanted to cut down on travel time, they got themselves a bicycle.:D

So does it boil down to this: If you want to develop the crumbling northern and midlands cities, you make it easier to get to London? Or am I just not getting the point?

33 billion pounds is a big chunk of coin. It would go a long way to helping create jobs in areas where there are large numbers of unemployed (by "unemployed" I mean those who are out of work, and would like nothing better than to get back to work. Not the shiftless who spend their lives avoiding work.) On one hand, your govt. seems to be cutting thousands of jobs ... in the military for example ... and on the other, promising to create thousands of jobs on a mega project that may, or probably may not have any lasting economic and social benefits.

As an aside: Talking of the military, has anyone noticed that in the Middle East, and parts of Africa, there is this immense swiftly rotating object, and a tsunami of fecal matter is heading straight for it. Maybe some of that 33 billion would be better spent making sure that the men and women of your armed forces are well-equipped to deal with your inevitable involvement. After all, whose going to have to help out the frogs when they screw up and start legging it;):D

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Excuse me? I offered to arrange a short term loan for the full amount, for such a small loan I would actually want some form of references.

Now, let me collapse on the sofa in self pity, I can only reply during the adverts, I'm trying to fall asleep to daytime T.V. I really must be ill, 'cos it usually works.
:(

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Sorry Cashy, misread that.
Where is this chunk of money coming from?

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

it amuses me that could get to London quicker than I can get to work in Knutsford by the same transport system....

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Osborne is borrowing more money each month just to pay our way!
So we'll have to borrow the £33 billion as well.
It will only create 9000 jobs to build it, no one is saying the contracts will go to British companies employing British workers. The multi billion order for rolling stock went to Siemens in Germany so no guarantees. Still, it'll keep 9000 Romanians occupied!
The other 31,000 jobs it will create will be in running it and servicing it so no export wealth will be created, just more service jobs.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

so not that money making scam PFI then!

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

to keep our train system viable government according to radio 2 and a load of tree huggers on the show are looking at taxing the hell out of the motorist even more to subsiside train travelers

they wont tell the rail compnay to manage its money better its much easier to screw someone else

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Could be, Margaret. Both are ways of spending money you haven't got.
Borrow it and it shows as Government debt,which looks bad, you pay interest and when the loan is up you borrow it again because you haven't any cash to pay it off.

Under PFI it doesn't show as Government debt so it looks good. But the money men build it and own it and you 'rent' it off them for 25 to 30 years, usually. You pay that much in rent that by the end of the contract it's cost you about 5 times what it cost to build and you now own a 30 year old obsolete hospital. In the meantime the hospital trust has had to pay so much in 'rent' they've overspent their budgets every year, gone in debt, had to close wards, get rid of staff etc.

Take your pick.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Service jobs would be better than nothing ... but not much. If, as I think you are suggesting, the project could make work for British firms, employing British workers, it might not be all that bad of a deal. Do you think it possible that money injected into Briitish companies might create a longer lasting benefit, with these companies manufacturing and exporting real "stuff" like locomotives and rolling stock, and related technologies? With jobs created and spin-off benefits, the borrowing of the 33 billion could be seen as an investment.

But for some reason, I don't think this is what your tories have in mind.:rolleyes:

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

The Siemens contract had a very competitive quote from Bombadier. All right it's a Canadian company but it would have expanded its factory here, taken on more British workers and been ready to push for exports from a safe base with years of work already under its belt.( And it would have helped you colonials survive-keep it in the family. )There was some delayed payment fiddle which pushed it to Siemens. The Germans wouldn't have allowed it to happen the other way round.
I read somewhere all the locomotives and rolling stock for HS will be bought from a French company, built in France based on existing French designs. So we've lost that one before we start.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

i for the life of me find it farcical that this country cant run an efficient and affordable train service yet most of europe can.Someone is clearly crap at their job and whoever is giving that person or persons their job is also failing miserably.I dont see why government should constantly fund a private buisness that does nothing but produce one failure after another.The government shoudl pull all funding and let them fail miserably on their own then swoop in and buy the train service outright at a bargain bucket deal price and employ somone competant to run it.

its only a guess but i reakon teh majority of tax payers money given to the train company to improve things either ends up in shareholders pockets or paying contractors on the basis of who their friends are and not what they can deliver at value for money

they get hand out after handout and still have the audacity to not only put up prices above inflation but provide a urine poor service to boot.

oops a leaf has appeared on my keyboard so will have to stop typing

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

We could even provide um with their own neatly printed T Shirts Dave and a nice new box:rolleyes::)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

you mean a luchbox for their sandwiches and errr...

http://hempbeach.com/wp-content/uplo...ch-tv-hbtv.jpg

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

I was wondering about Bombardier ... they have a facility and test track in Kingston, and I know they are a major international player in transportation. And if they already have a factory in Britain, employing British workers, it probably would have been a better deal. Maybe this is a case in which the cheapest deal is not necessarily the best one in the long run.

Oh, and by the way, out here in the colonies, we are doing just fine.;):D

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

I would buy the old con club then tear it down

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

You're certainly doing a lot better than we are.
You haven't got a spare billion I can borrow, have you? I think Less is chickening out.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

The West Coast mainline upgrade was supposed to cost £2 billion. Someone decided it was expensive so they cut the specifications to cut the cost. We got a poorer upgrade than planned and guess what- it only cost £9 billion.

So multiply that £33 billion by 2,3,4 ? Take your pick.

Let me know on that billion, Eric. I think we might need it soon.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Whats really amusing about this, is if Labour had introduced it,when in power, certain people would now be bitching about Labours overspending. Just fer a change.:rolleyes::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

We already did our bit and supplied you with a new governor for the Bank of England:D By the way, the next time the Yanks and the Europeans (I've never thought of Britain as being part of Europe; but that's a whole 'nother new thread;)) come around asking if you want to be part of a great economic meltdown, your government should say: "No thanks, guys; we'll pass on that." We did ... and look where it got us. We also said "No thanks" to the last debacle in Iraq too. And the Yanks still love us:D Well, maybe not us so much as our oil, uranium, etc, etc, etc.;)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Apparently the government say full consultations will be held. So is that waste of money in the original 33 billion or is it 'extras' ?

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Probably the same type of consultations as Accy Bus Station.:rolleyes:

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Consultations will never make every one happy, especially those that disagree with the outcome

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

It's only History repeating itself, when the original railways were built it was by using Irish Navvies, so they can now claim that it's traditional to build using foreign workers.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Ya even now the hug a tree brigade are organising protests and delaying tactics which means when it does get the go ahead the cost will have spiralled to £66 billion and beyond;)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

And the first passenger announcement will be,

'Sorry about the 15 year delay of your first superfast passenger service, it was caused by the wrong protesters on the line'.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

I have always thought that if someone is stupid enough to be in a tree that is being cut down if their own fault if they die.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Me too Neil, but these people have rights ya know, covered by the Human Rights Act, should this be covered by this act, should it hell, nine times out of ten the rights of these people, trample all over those off the rest of us, its a total nonsense

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Can't understand how protesters are a problem, just send in an elite squad of H&S inspectors if one of these guys can shut down factories employing thousands just think how a dozen or so could tackle the infringements caused by a few ill equipped jokers.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Ya Less and we all know where that will lead us, we'd end up with the Socialist Workers Party camped there all day shouting Fascist pigs and waving placards;)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

It would be good to have some consultation though......and for the consultation to be transparent....with the criteria for responders being outlined clearly, and their responses available to those who want to view them.
For all we know, consultation could mean a show of hands in the offices of those contractors who are lined up for the job(and I know that is a stretched analogy).
Of course not everyone will agree, especially if you are the one who has their house devalued by such a proposal.....then you do need to see that the consultation was above board.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

if someone is in a tree and wont come down just chainsaw teh tree down then frame the nearest woodpecker

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Here you go a link to consultations Consultations | HS2

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

That is how it should be done.......has anyone had anything like that for our new project in the town?

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Did you read all the planning files linked on here? Did it contain and consultation information?

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Neil, I did start reading it, but gave it up as the Lancashire hotpot that I had in the oven was starting to boil over(I hate cleaning the oven anyway)...so I have to admit I gave it up.
It does outline who was consulted though...in broad terms...like home-owners on the route who will be affected by a drop in the value of their property(not likely to vote for it are they?)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

the tree huggers wont be the problem it will be the people in the shires who are traditional tory voters which will be the problem.they will fight tooth and nail .they are the, not in my backyard types;)

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

And you can guarantee that all the winning contract companies will have a Member Of Parliament as a director or consultant :rolleyes:

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Yes, well we have already established that MP's are living on their uppers......need more money to make ends meet...so they have to do something.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

Ya but they do quite well when they leave parliament Margaret, our Tony has earned over £12 million since leaving office, and even though he's still an MP (in name only he never sets a foot in parliament these days) Gordon is well on his way, on the American speaking circuit at around £200k a pop, and John Major can be seen in the best seats at every cricket ground in the country watching test matches, with a G & T in his mitt, and they are the rewards for failure, just think of the rewards if they'd been successful:rolleyes:

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

John....I was being ever so slightly sarcastic in that post.
Let them all try living for a period of time on a basic pension(I would suggest a year) I am pretty sure it would make them more cost conscious/effective in their jobs and in their personal affairs too.

Re: If you had £33 billion spare?
 

I don't think it would Margaret, the only MP I've come across who possibly would is the late Ken Hargreaves, all his life the only think he ever wanted to do is help others, it really pees me of when these so call big name politicians end up with all these titles lord this and sir that, if anybody deserved a knighthood it was Ken, they did award him an MBE which at least went part of the way to help thank him for a lifetime of effort on behalf of others.