Welcome Turkey ?

[Acrylic-bob]

During last week I was astonished at the lengths Blair and his side-kick Straw were prepared to go to in making sure that the cause of the admission of Turkey into the EU was pushed ahead. In my humble opinion this move would be one of the most serious and threatening errors the EU has yet made. One is moved to wonder why Blair and Co are so keen for it to come to pass?

We are all familiar with Turkey's reputation in the field of Human Rights thanks to the Oliver Stone film "Midnight Express". But what some of you may not be familiar with is that Turkeys record is far longer and a good deal bloodier.

This from 1915.

The first genocide of the 20th century is one that has gone by largely unnoticed. Still denied by many Turks, the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1916 accounts for the death of one and a half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

The first step in this annihilation was to disarm the Armenians in the army, place them into labour battalions and then kill them. Then, on April 24, 1915, the Armenian political and intellectual leaders were gathered and killed. Finally, the remaining Armenians were called from their homes, often in a house by house search. Many men were shot immediately or thrown into prison, only to be tortured to death later. The rest of the men, and the women and children were told they would be relocated, and then marched off to concentration camps in the desert between Jerablus and Deir ez-Zor. Here, they would starve and thirst to death in the burning sun. Prisoners were starved, beaten, raped and murdered by unmerciful guards.

During the march, Armenians were denied food and water. They were driven along by the soldiers day after day, all on foot. They were beaten or left to die if they could not keep up with the caravan. The authorities in Trebizond, on the Black Sea Coast, sometimes loaded Armenians on barges and threw them overboard. Some of the women on the march were forced to strip naked and walk in this condition under the burning sun.

Many other women were seized by Turkish officers or civilian officials and made a part of their harems. Others were sold in the market as were many children, but only to a Moslem purchaser....

...The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone." The genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia (present-day Turkey), and not just in the so-called "war zone." At the time, the genocide was condemned by representatives of the United States, British, French, Russian, German, and Austrian governments.

Source: http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/MiddleEast/ArmenMassacre.html


We already have one genocidal nation in the European Union, do we really want to play host to another?

[janet]

Why not let them in, they will fit in well with all the others running this country into the ground. ( she says with a touch of sarcasm )

[Bagpuss]

Give a Moslem an inch............ It may come back to haunt you Mr Blair.

[Busman747]

I understand what you are saying A-b, but must point out that all this happened almost 100 years ago.

I have recently been reading up on the Spanish inquisition which was responsible for the violent deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people ....all in the name of the Catholic religion........and yet, no one now blames Catholics for the atrocities that occurred at that time!....and quite right too!

Only 60 years ago, Germany with the full support of her people, massacred many, many Jews and attempted to over-run Europe and Russia plus the U.K, but history has been put aside for the sake of harmony.

Japan was an aggresive country that by and large, did not abide by the Geneva Convention and treated its prisoners appallingly.....How many Japanese items do you have in your house A-b?

Do you remember the Argentines invading and killing British Citizens in the Faulklands? Do you still eat Corn Beef?

I agree with most of your postings but notice that on this one, you went for the jugular and introduced religion (Muslim) as well as the country to augment your point, This, I feel is unfair and is an insult to the many Muslims that live in both the U.K, and around the world including Turkey!

I feel that intergration is the answer, not conflict so that we all understand each other and can eventually work together. It will not happen over-night, but by rejecting Turkey because of it's past and because it is a Muslim country could set back the peace of the world for decades!!!!

I would like to add something that was sent to me the other day by a young lady that I love very much and was very close to me but died this weekend in a traffic accident. It was never meant to represent the country of "Turkey" but reading between the lines, could apply to my sentiments:

Be nice to yu turkeys dis christmas
Cos' turkeys just wanna hav fun
Turkeys are cool, turkeys are wicked
An every turkey has a Mum.
Be nice to yu turkeys dis christmas,
Don't eat it, keep it alive,
It could be yu mate, an not on your plate
Say, Yo! Turkey I'm on your side.
I got lots of friends who are turkeys
An all of dem fear christmas time,
Dey wanna enjoy it, dey say humans destroyed it
An humans are out of dere mind,
Yeah, I got lots of friends who are turkeys
Dey all hav a right to a life,
Not to be caged up an genetically made up
By any farmer an his wife.

Turkeys just wanna play reggae
Turkeys just wanna hip-hop
Can yu imagine a nice young turkey saying,
'I cannot wait for de chop',
Turkeys like getting presents, dey wanna watch christmas TV,
Turkeys hav brains an turkeys feel pain
In many ways like yu an me.

I once knew a turkey called...Turkey
He said "Benji explain to me please,
Who put de turkey in christmas
An what happens to christmas trees?",
I said "I am not too sure turkey
But it's nothing to do wid Christ Mass
Humans get greedy an waste more dan need be
An business men mek loadsa cash'.

Be nice to yu turkey dis christmas
Invite dem indoors fe sum greens
Let dem eat cake an let dem partake
In a plate of organic grown beans,
Be nice to yu turkey dis christmas
An spare dem de cut of de knife,
Join Turkeys United an dey'll be delighted
An yu will mek new friends 'FOR LIFE'.
I hope and pray you find peace in your new life Michelle xxx.............

I love you,
Dad.

[Darby]

We do have rather a lot of Turks in Germany. Some of them are third generation Turks...but still do not integrate with the German people.
Turkey is really several tribal areas and their peoples are still very tribal. Those from teh extreme west are very Europeanised...whilst those from the extreme east are at best semi-civilised and still in the dark ages. The Anatolians do not like the west (except of course the money and all that glitters), and are still very traditional, killing lambs and goats and living primitively as their forefathers did.

This assembled nation is nowhere near the standard of western european countries and peoples. They still have many problems, civil and economic. Their entry into the EU is only wished by themselves as they will obtain untold riches and financial assistance at a great cost to all other EU members.

The large businesses want EU expansion to open up new markets and increase profits, it doesn't matter to them if the standards in the rest of the EU fall, as long as they have new markets to exploit.

If, and I say if with deep foreboding, Turkey becomes a member of the EU....Iraq will then be on its borders. The potential consequences are awful and extremely alarming.

Get ready to go down the plughole!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[entwisi]

Busman, Did I read that correctly? If so I am so sorry. I do hope you are OK. My thoughts go with you.

Ian

[Acrylic-bob]

The first point I want to make clear is that my post had little to do with the religion of the countries involved. That they happen to be Moslem and Christian is in terms of that particular conflict significant, but of little relevance to the discussion in hand.
I fail to see how the recounting of historical fact could be construed, however obliquely, as insulting to muslims. Surely the twentieth century has taught us that the way that such events are properly dealt with is first by owning them, accepting ones part in them, expressing remorse for ones actions and then by taking steps to ensure that it never happens again, which is what Germany and Japan have done. It is not properly dealt with by the consistent denial of responsibility and attempting to sweep it under the carpet.
Yes I agree that these events happened close on a hundred years ago, but does the interval of time make them any less repulsive? The slaughter of the Western Front happened shortly afterwards but as a nation we still mourn the loss of those men and in many households throughout the kingdom that loss is still keenly felt. Do you suppose that the Armenians feel the murder of one and half million of their compatriots, for no other reason than the fact of their ethnic origin, any less keenly? I can tell you, from personal experience, that they do not. Touch on the subject of this massacre in any Armenian household and you open up a world of sorrow that is so palpable as to be almost insupportable, that is, if you can persuade them to talk about it all. Indeed their sorrow is compounded because, unlike the Jewish Holocaust, they are compelled to bear it in isolation in a world that apparently knows little of it and cares even less.
There is also this to consider; Turkey has been actively lobbying for admission into the EU for the last forty years. I cannot imagine that at some time during that period that Brussels would not have appraised them of the criteria, both social and economic, that are required for admission. And yet they are still ten years and Billions of Euros in economic aid away from qualifying.
My point is that there is another agenda at work here, one that is not being openly discussed. The decision to admit Turkey to membership of the EU is based solely on the fact of it’s geographic, and hence strategic importance. Such considerations place little importance on the social or economic repercussions of admitting to membership what is still, to all intents and purposes, a third world country.
As if to prove that point, it was necessary, in the face of Turkey’s refusal to recognise Cyprus, to bend the rules and use a fudge to get the agreement signed at all.

[vorlon24]

But I thought Turkey's recognition of Cyprus was key to the negotiations, and nothing would be agreed until this happened?

I must admit though that I am a couple of days behind with the news on this

[entwisi]

I too was under the impression that Cyprus was a key point in their acceptance.

A-B I seem to recall this country has a rather poor reputation around the same timeframe when we were building our 'Empire'. There is probably very few of the major powers who doesn't have a skeleton in their cupboard. Yes we in England, and probably most of the world, do not know about certain events. It was something that happened at a time of major world upheaval. We are also very introspective and do not go out looking at hat is happening in other countries. Take N&S KOrea for example. Most people would not have a clue what is going on there.

Personally I would rather live for the future the past. I firmly believe the phrase

"We do not inherit the earth from our parents, We borrow it from our children"

Ian

[Acrylic-bob]

Many States in Europe have said that acknowlegement of Cyprus is a requirement but for the purposes of begining accession negotiations a form of words was adopted to allow Turkey to agree while not having to recognise Cyprus.

However, here is an interesting article which may put a bit more meat on the bones of this discussion,

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles...e.asp?ID=16059

[Acrylic-bob]

For some reason the picture of Chele Kula, quoted in the article is not working.

It is not a pleasant picture, but anyone interested can PM me and I will happily email it to them. (If you are under 18 I will need your Parents' agreement first.)

[Acrylic-bob]

>>Personally I would rather live for the future the past. I firmly believe the phrase

"We do not inherit the earth from our parents, We borrow it from our children"<<

A laudable sentiment mate, if only the world were an ideal place, then eveyone would feel that way. Sadly however, this is not the case.

If I follow your statement about borrowing the earth from our children to it's logical conclusion, then presumably our parents borrowed it from us and their parents from them, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum. Thus it would seem that we do in fact inherit the world, with all its faults, from our parents after all.

[Tealeaf]

Who gives a dam whether Turkey is a member of the Common Market or not? The only important thing that matters is the continuing membership by the UK of this rip-off charade. GET THE HELL OUT THE COMMON MARKET NOW!

[pendy]

I was very pro-Europe when it was a question of trade tariffs and better links. Now it has gone much too far - I'll keep my sterling thank you very much, you can stuff your euros. I also know whether I want half a pound of something or not (and yes, I do know how to convert to/from kilos). Again, if it's British, knock it (all those Europeans started off with metric, they had nothing to lose).

I too am beginning to think we should leave - otherwise we will end up even more the poor man of Europe than we are now - the French ignore the rules they don't like, but we have to stick by them. The Germans love rules anyway, so they don't mind.

Let Turkey in, I say, but let us out at the same time!

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

taking steps to ensure that it never happens again

That's the bit which concerns me. I would hope that it will be taken into account before Turkey is admitted to the EU. It isn't going to happen overnight.

I agree that we need to move forward and look to the future. We can't go back in time. We can only start out from where we are now and hopefully have learned something from past experiences.

This whole "it's the scary muslims" is somewhat reminiscent of the McCarthyism "reds under the bed" era in the USA.

Yes I am afraid of losing our rights and of being oppressed by an alien culture, who wouldn't be, but I do believe we should try to learn more about each other and to tolerate each other - not to excuse misdeeds of the past but hopefully to move forward.
If Turkey isn't prepared to do that then of course it's a whole different ballgame.

BTW A-b I forgot to give you my email address - see new PM.