Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Accrington Stanley boss a wanted man (From Lancashire Telegraph)

Well, it would appear that Ilyas is on the case. We can only hope!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

The fact that the contracts are not sorted is shameful,” said Khan, who is based in Surrey.

“You could talk about Ferguson or Wenger but I don’t see anyone who has served their football club better than John.

“He has done an incredible job, and I phoned him and asked him to please bear with us while the management come to their senses.

“For whatever reason, and I don’t know what it is, Dave and Rob have not signed the contracts.

“All I can do is appeal to Dave and Rob. I can but sit and watch.”


...says it all really. Over to you, Mr O'Neill.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

reading that it aint down to ilyas, the buck stops wi those 2......as if we didn't know.:mad:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

That's the big worry :(

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Personally I think rob Heys is out of the equation ousted by whalley and oneil tbh just a strong feeling I get.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

And who is pulling "those 2's" strings ? EW is probably the person behind all this. He is trying to put Stanley down and get rid of Ilyas for his own ego trip. It's not DON that we should be trying to get out but EW. Get him away from the day to day running of the Club and away from the Crown Ground, if we don't, we will end up back in non-league, and very soon.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

At the end of the day EW is the owner of the club. He has you all by the goolies because he knows the only way Ilyas can force a takeover is to call in the debts. EW knows he won't do that because that would mean putting the club in to administration and everybody knows Ilyas won't do that.

He also knows Ilyas will keep bailing out the club because otherwise the above will also happen.

If you don't like the way I run my business you don't shop here. Not going to happen with a football club because the fans have a loyalty like no other business can ask for.

Keep taking the painkillers, those goolies are going to get sore :rolleyes:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

So what can us fans/supporters do? Sit back whilst goolies are being kicked ?

Seems wrong ownership Is the poison of football today, many wish the good old days back, even in top flights football has to turn on it's head it's ruining the beautiful game as we know it :(

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Draft a letter to Mr O’Neil and Mr Heys asking them to resolve the Contract issue for the sake of the club and both John & Jimmy and the players. Get the Observer and the Telegraph to publish that this letter will be available at the Town Hall for the public/supporters to sign and get as many signatures has you can.

Then present it at the Club on mass, candles and flags ablaze………..press, photographers the works.

I'll drive over and sign it...

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I've just been reading O'Neill's profile on the fishy site. It says this:

With interests in four other local businesses, David took the majority share of Accrington Stanley in June 2009 from predecessor Eric Whalley who had been at the helm of the club since 1995.

(My italics)

What an interesting phrase that is : "took the majority share". What exactly does the word "took" mean? Bought? Accepted as a gift? Borrowed? Or something else altogether?

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Do you mean something along these lines Doug?


An open letter to :-

Messers O'Neil, Whalley and Heys,

Sirs,

We, the undersigned demand that the current situation with reference to the contracts of Manager John Coleman and Assistant Manager Jimmy Bell be brought to a conclusion with imediate effect.

It is common knowledge that these contracts have been sitting waiting to be signed for over eight months, and this, in the opinion of the fans of ASFC is totally unacceptable.

Both Mr Coleman and Mr Bell have given 12 yrs of undying support to ASFC and it is our opinion that this remarkable achievement should be recognised by the Club, and the aforementioned contract/s be ratified forthwith.

Failure to do so will surely mean that both Mr Coleman and Mr Bell would be forced to seek employment at another club, which in turn would, we feel, have a detrimental effect on ASFC's league position/standing.

Mr O'Neil, when you first took over the day to day running of ASFC, you said at a public meeting that you wanted us to 'trust you'..........Well Sir, you have repeatedly scorned that trust in the past 2 years, you now have a chance to at least start to recoup some of that by securing both Mr Coleman's and Mr Bell's services. We implore you to do so.


Regards, the undersigned:-


cc
Lancashire Telegraph, Accrington Observer, BBC Radio Lancashire, 2Br, Granada TV, BBC North West, Hyndburn Borough Council



Feel free to add/subtract or ignore!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Blimey uk u don't mess about sounds a good draft to me :)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Thought about leaving it untill 'next week'.......................:rolleyes:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

See Fishy site

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

"An announcement regarding the pair will be made before the end of next week."

Why does that not reassure me one little bit? :rolleyes:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Says the end of the week!

But i thought they had verbally agreed contracts, If so then it justs needs typing and signing on dotted lines??

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

The end of NEXT week! So, it could take seven working days to type up and sign a contract? Lincoln could've made their move long before then. :rolleyes:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Cos its that 'famous' next week line we've heard so many times before :rolleyes:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

from fishy site

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Thing is it should of been sorted out ages ago, why is it now they suddenly spring intro action when other clubs seek real interest and the fans are going mad do they make a half hearted attempt????? Grrr

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

It just says "end of the week". It doesn't say end of this week. "End of the week" could mean the end of any week. Anyway, he is just telling lies to try and shut everybody up.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

More fobbing off.

Jimmy Bell said in teh paper a few days ago that the contract terms are long agreed. There's no need for negotiations.

How can so much idiocy be piled into that one portacabin off Livvy Road?

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I agree

Nobody has any vision, planning or mission at the club. It is crisis management every day....

The amount of times the fishy site responds to a furore generated by the fans its disgusting.....

O'Neill Out
Eric please retire before your supporters turn against you

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Willie, what do you mean "before"? There must be very few of you who still have any time for these 2 after the shambles they have presided over during the last couple of years. It seems a very long time since I had my knuckles rapped on here for daring to even think about a march to EW's domicile, but I now fervently wish that it had come to pass. I think Ilyas calmed things down at the time, wanting to give the deadlegs time to come good. Surely their time is up?

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Links to other reports

Accrington Stanley resume Coleman contract talks (From Lancashire Telegraph)

Coleman set for Stanley talks - Yahoo! Eurosport

Copied from todays LET

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Spot on Jase!!!!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Problem there is crisis management also involves a perception of both the reality and the crisis itself.... as well as communication:eek:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Need to get the contracts sorted stop the messing about and get on with it. If Coley goes the club will have serious problems getting players from his sources at scouseland

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Just seen it on S.S.N. Strapline, it says "Talks going well!!" :) :) :)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Looks like it's almost there now...

John Coleman to remain at Accrington Stanley

Still shouldn't stop us protesting, though. The situation should never have got to this. :mad:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I think that protests should start and continue until EW relents and lets Ilyas have his share issue allowing Stanley to move forward.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

You dont know Eric that well then???:rolleyes:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I realise that it will take a lot for EW to walk away and that he is a stubborn so and so with a massive brass neck, but I think that any protests should be directed at him and not DON. It's EW that is causing this mess and nobody else. He is still pulling the strings of DON and RH and until EW gets lost Stanley will just fall deeper and deeper into debt with Ilyas (EW will make sure of that). He is just laughing at Ilyas and taking the mickey out of him.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Spot on, Jeff. So when is the peaceful march on Great Harwood, then? We would need decent numbers for it not to look pathetic! Let's take a leaf out of the Liverpool reds supporters book!:D
We really need the Ultras on board, but I'm not sure their movers and shakers are fully in agreement with me and thee on E.W.:(

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I agree the buck stops with him and is not only laughing at ilyas but at all us fans too, taking the michael, think we need to apply the pressure [in a law abiding way of course;)]. Jeff is spot on EW is the organ grinder and is using don to deflect the crap that hits the fan while ew saunters on with destruction.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Coley 9/10 with one bookie :-(

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

ASFC News Story > 3608

till 2015:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Coley 1/5 with another bookie

Lincoln Specials Next Permanent Manager Betting Odds | Football Specials Betting

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Hallelujah! - Thank goodness that's sorted - it's a relief to all but as others have said, the rest of the situation needs to come to a conclusion as soon as, we can't go on lurching from one crisis to another which we will as long as the Whalley/O'Neil debacle is allowed to continue

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Thank Christ for that.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

The contracts haven't actually been signed yet. I'll be a lot happier when they have.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Report in MEN

Coleman signs on with Stanley until 2015 - Manchester Evening News

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

So why's Coley still 1/5 with Skybet?
Manager Specials | Football Betting | Sky Bet.

Is it them or is there something we don't know?

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Well done Coley & Jimmy. They played this perfectly.

O'Neill out.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Despite recent developments, Coley is still 1/5 with one bookie and now 9/10 with Victor Chandler!
Lincoln Specials Next Permanent Manager Betting Odds | Football Specials Betting

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

It's not signed yet! :eek:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Tomorrow......if you can believe Radio Lancs:)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Latest from BBC Lincs (but it doesn't say much):
BBC Sport - Football - Lincoln City set timescale for appointing new manager

Looks like they're aiming to make an appointment 'next week'!

And a new candidate who's not been mentioned before: Andy Preece:
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...433187,00.html

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Great news and a very long contract, that is even better news!!!!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I have in recent years (first 2 seasons in fl)had some concerns as to whether coley was being to loyal to some players and carrying them thus admittedly asking myself if he was cut out for this level. Im glad to say when he fixed my concerns he and his team have excelled. When you realise what budgets are available, resources etc you realise (and all the football league are starting to) what a great management partnership messrs coleman and bell really are. The loyalty they have shown is scarse in the modern football world and I praise them for showing such. I do think they have been hidden under the radar for a long while though as to what a brilliant job they have done over the years and I am really suprised no big boys have took a gamble on them. I remember when mk dons went up and ince got the rovers job and saying to my mate that coley had a better managerial record and experience and that he would of walked that league with the resources ince had and he said but ince played pro footie at the top level and internationally which we had an argument over as to what attributes to a good football manager. But i think that may be the reason theyve been kept at arms reach for now. Long may the management continue but I think it may only be a matter of time (1 more promotion) before the 'big boys' come knocking.
Just to add the footie Ive seen so far this season is the best Ive ever seen stanley play.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I'll keep on saying it, he's not signed yet...

...and it would appear that Lincoln aren't giving up so easily...

LINCOLN CITY remain undeterred in their pursuit of Accrington Stanley manager John Coleman as the race to succeed Chris Sutton developed another fascinating twist. :eek:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

[. Long may the management continue but I think it may only be a matter of time (1 more promotion) before the 'big boys' come knocking.
.[/quote]

John Coleman is, from what we see every Saturday, read, and hear in his interviews, an intelligent if not intellectual Man, who is extremely successful in his chosen profession.
With these attributes in mind, it is not unreasonable to assume that Clubs other than Accrington Stanley would strongly desire to have him at the helm of their particular ship,and if their allure to John be it size, status, challenge, or in these days where it increasingly matters, the Monthly Cheque, was strong enough, he like so many Football Managers before him, could in no way be blamed for following his ambition.
So, in spite of hastily presented contracts, and the assured admiration of all the fans at our Club, with the spectre of Lincoln City still lurking in the wings, we will not have to appear too disappointed when the inevitable happens. After all, which one of us in John's current situation would not give a positive move to a 'better' Club more than serious consideration ?.
Having said all that.....COLEY...DON'T GO !!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Dribble.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Doug please get your head out of your rear then cos you're talking watery poo:dflam:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I can not believe you people at times; By the way, Alan, I got your message, you'll love this.

John Coleman goes on local radio and tells the all of Lancashire how he feels about Accrington Stanley and how happy he is with the new contract and how he's looking forward to taking Accrington Stanley to the next level.

I am proud of my association with Accrington Stanley, I want to see it prosper, I want the people who mock the club to choke on their words. I want the club whoever the hell is running it succeed, Because that's what everyone who supports Accrington Stanley deserve.

What they don't deserve is this unending DRIBBLE of doom and gloom. What part of John Coleman's statement do you not believe?

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Are you saying Mr. Coleman is telling Porkies Mel. The man say's he's staying. Others are saying he's not. I know who I believe. :)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

WTH doug seriously u are talking the dogs balls, i never said owt against coleman nor drawn opinion on whether he's staying etc, most of us are on about the state of the current owner crap:dflam:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

My comment "dribble" was in respect of people not accepting that John Coleman said he's got his contract and he's happy with it. So why did you feel the need to have a go and comment.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Doug Once again I sort of understand to a degree where you are coming from on the pitch stuff as we are on fire but off it there is a problem that despite having long enough it still has not been resolved one way or another.

For the Club to move forward as ONE or in UNISON or COLLECTIVELY that problem has to be overcome in order to be UNITED

the Bold highlighted bits sort of form a sentance that maybe gives you a clue to what people want

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Erm because it was more like get behind the owners than just JC, JC & JB have all my support but the old backroom 2 boobs dont, its not only me that thinks u have got the red tinted spectorals on that everything is now lovely & rosey since the news broke he agrees to sign...............BUT theres always something else waiting round the corner!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Get rid of O'Neil first and Whalley steps up to the plate, not Rob. I don't like it any more than anyone else. Let Ilyas or someone else with the financial clout sort this out.

New bodies will mean big money to pay for them; but we can't sustain income. You are right it is chatch 22, but the longer people stay away or refuse to spend money it won't improve.

I am not backing David O'Neil or Eric Whalley, (although I refuse to forget the good days under Eric Whalley) and I am not anti Ilyas Khan. This thread is entitled Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution; contract have been issued and that is what I was commenting on. :)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Can you all call a truce now.... I'm the one in striking distance when you reply :D:D:D:D:D

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

You’re Claret so it’s ok…….:D

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Not according to the fishy site :
David took the majority share of Accrington Stanley in June 2009 from predecessor Eric Whalley who had been at the helm of the club since 1995.

And that, Doug, is the source of all the negative vibes that you complain about. Until that situation is resolved, there will always be suspicion and negativity.

We all like to be positive, but underlying any positivity are the lies and deceit that relate to that supposed transaction.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Redraine have taken note and edited my own post :D

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Yommon; I have no idea who you are; nor do I have any intention of suggesting you personally sent me any message.

You have your opinion; I have mine.

I won't be at Gigg Lane or any other game for the foreseeable future. I work from 7 am to 11.00 pm seven days a week, the best shot of a game I get is at my desk in the office or the laptop in the kitchen between admin jobs or out in the community. But I promise I'll introduce myself in a year or so when I do get chance to see our team play at the Crown. Unless Fleetwood come up, then I could half a match up there.


hit him again Mel :D

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

I don't think anyone's interested in what's running down your chin Doug, but there seems to be a general consensus of opinion that you're talking drivel.:rolleyes:

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

[Like I said....TRUCE !!.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

...and still we wait for news of contracts signed!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Rumour has it they are having an interview at sincil bank this coming week.....

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Maybe somebody better nip up the Crown Ground first thing Monday morning with a pen :)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

i won euro millions!!!!!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

THIS IS A
http://www.begoths.com/html/images/h...doom_gloom.jpg

FREE ZONE !!
BUT WELCOME ANYWAY YOU LITTLE IMP FROM LINCOLN....
( P.S. You are now our unofficial Spy-in-Charge at Sincil Bank...So keep us posted !.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

From Lincolnshire News today..
John Coleman still remains top of City's priority list, although his decision to agree a new contract at Accrington Stanley has relegated him to second favourite.
Steve Tilson is now the new leader with Victor Chandler bookmakers at 9/4 with Penney in third 5/1, Steve Thompson and Mick Harford are 7/1.


and....


Former Southend boss Steve Tilson has been interviewed for the Lincoln City job.
City's board grilled the former Canvey Island midfielder ahead of their 2-1 win against Macclesfield Town.
Tilson left Southend at the end of last season and has been ranked by the bookies as favourite to succeed Chris Sutton, who quit last week.
Tilson was in the stands to see City's victory which came courtesy of goals from Moses Swaibu and Jamie Clapham.


Pressure eases somewhat Dave ??.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Sill won't be happy until they've actually put pen to paper. Semi-Skilled told me in the Staff of Life this afternoon that he won't be happy until they've put a scan of the signed contract up on t'fishy site! ;)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Wouldn't suprise me after all he did come over and clap us all following in appreciation.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Aye, but he ALWAYS does that.:D

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Yes but is there a deeper meaning this time if the rumour IS true. Shocking performance overall.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

No he always comes over to clap both of them do, rumours are just that,

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Bury | News | Latest News | Latest News | Lowe 1st Goal - 3-0 win - 60/1

Maybe should of took the advice of the Bury Site ;).

BBC still reporting as although he has fully signed.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

[quote=Nickelson;851156]Bury | News | Latest News | Latest News | Lowe 1st Goal - 3-0 win - 60/1

Maybe should of took the advice of the Bury Site ;).
Talking of Websites Nick...here's the latest thinking from the Chairman on the Sincil Bank site....

"We have received applications from some very good candidates," writes Mr Dorrian.

"It is likely that on this occasion we will be looking to employ a more experienced manager with proven attributes either in Football League or Conference level football. We will apply our same philosophy of giving our new manager time to progress and take the Club forward and would envisage a minimum of a 2½ year contract.

"In terms of timescales I would hope that we are in a position to name our new manager by next Saturday. On this occasion I think it is important to bring in our new manager as quickly as possible to give ourselves as much time as possible to recover from what has been a relatively poor start to the season."

I just wonder if...????

(ps No 'gloom and doom' intended!)

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

'Seems to have been confirmed by a couple of people, one of which at the Club, that Coleman is having an interview somewhere today. Then Penney tomorrow.'

Reliable Lincoln source.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

with his bank manager

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

http://www.redimps.co.uk/javaImages/...9105320,00.jpg

I'm a-gonna make him an offer he can't refuse....
(Bob Dorrian...Chairman, Lincoln City F.C.).

Only musing...honest !!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

if this turns out to be true and he leaves. whoever has released the premature stories of the duo already signing to the media will bevery red faced

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Nobody in an offical capacity has said they have signed new contracts, it says they have agreed them

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...time_/?ref=rss

Reassuring?...or just bluster?

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Exclusive this a.m. from Lincolnshire News!....

THE race to become Lincoln City's new manager developed another engrossing plot twist today amid speculation that Mark Cooper is a genuine contender to succeed Chris Sutton.
It is understood City's hierarchy have not ruled out a move for the Darlington boss, who was touted for the job after Peter Jackson was sacked in September last year.
Despite weekend reports claiming Lincoln were rebuffed in their approach to speak to Cooper, the Echo understands no official bid was launched by the club's board.

Vairy interestinck ??

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Well, I for once, am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Or am I being naive???

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Well, the bookies seem to agree with you. Coley has slipped back to 16/1 with Victor Chandler, with Mark Cooper now 2= at 5/1 and Steve Tilson now favourite at 4/9. Skybet have Coley at 3/1 but seem a little behind with their odds.

Link: Lincoln Specials Next Permanent Manager Betting Odds | Football Specials Betting

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Just to let you know, the new manager is meant to be announced on Wednesday 13th, so we will all know by then who our managers are!

Good Luck!

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

Not if Coley goes!

Re Coley not signing a contract: Ridiculous. How can Stanley say an approach will be a waste of time if nothing has been signed.

Re: Coley & Jimmy Demand Contract Resolution
 

What do u expect Rob Heys to say?
The staff at our club have so much to learn; thats why its essential O'neill and Whalley are gone for good.