Referendum is a load of crap.!!

[cashman]

Not a chance they made the fatal mistake of trying to frighten the public, and for that will never be forgiven, imho

[Margaret Pilkington]

I think it would have been much more statesman like for him to admit he had misjudged the feelings in the country......and I am pretty sure that it would have calmed some of the jitters(even if it was only a little bit).
His credibility would have been enhanced by a couple of points.

What makes me uneasy is that this uncertainty will continue until Article 50 is invoked.
Is this the way that David Cameron shows his love for the country.....or is it a way to dole out punishment for not getting his own way....or is it something far more serious and sinister???
Is there some skulduggery afoot to block the democratic wishes of the electorate?

I really don't know.....but because I am a cynical old baggage these thought come into MY mind.
I don't know about the rest of you....but I feel that we are not OUT until the gates clang shut with us at one side and J.C.Junker on the other.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I think it would have been much more statesman like for him to admit he had misjudged the feelings in the country......and I am pretty sure that it would have calmed some of the jitters(even if it was only a little bit).
His credibility would have been enhanced by a couple of points.

What makes me uneasy is that this uncertainty will continue until Article 50 is invoked.
Is this the way that David Cameron shows his love for the country.....or is it a way to dole out punishment for not getting his own way....or is it something far more serious and sinister???
Is there some skulduggery afoot to block the democratic wishes of the electorate?

It seems that way to me, after what Hunts hinting at this morning, the same skullduggery is happening and destroying the Labour party, tragic but true.

[Hill Walker]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Is there some skulduggery afoot to block the democratic wishes of the electorate?

I really don't know.....but because I am a cynical old baggage these thought come into MY mind.
I don't know about the rest of you....but I feel that we are not OUT until the gates clang shut with us at one side and J.C.Junker on the other.

English is a wonderful language, over many centuries it has harvested words from a huge variety of sources and as a result it is probably the most capable language on the planet of expressing the finest distinctions of meaning. However careless use can produce endless confusion such as a request to 'CHOP DOWN that tree and then CHOP UP into firewood'. Its also the case that most trades and professions have found it necessary to have their own subsidiary dictionaries something which those with whom they deal can find infuriating such as house owners who find that ALL RISKS does not quite meet their expectations when their teenagers party has finished.

When dealing with politicians it is very wise to find out precisely which dictionaries are currently being used. If the recent referendum had voted on IN/OUT and the subsidiary dictionary had been cricket then the outcome would have been clear. However the vote was for REMAIN/LEAVE and the subsidiary dictionary was unclear, if the originator of the ballot script was a military person then the LEAVE option could simply mean some short period of time such as 72 hours.

This lack of clarity is unfortunate and should be remedied as soon as possible. In the short term the best solution is probably to speak to politicians slowly and clearly with ANGLO-SAXON as the subsidiary dictionary this appears to be the most probable to be unambiguously understood.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Hill walker your postis very interesting but I am unsure of the point of it(maybe I am being a bit thick - or maybe this is a tongue in cheek post). I thought politicians were educated men and women...and we have spoken to them in the past and they have PRETENDED to hear us...they have PRETENDED that they were concerned.....well until we had put our X in their box and then they disregarded everything that we ever said to them.
Yes our language is full of inconcistencies......and I know from my experience with foreign doctors that(as a nurse) some of them found it very difficult to understand. (you try explaining what a 'one night stand' is to a young chinese doctor)

If you are alluding to the question on the Ballot paper, I do not think it could have been made clearer.
And those people who are now saying that they regret voting to LEAVE the EU.......I would ask what they thought they were voting for?
There has been a report this morning about families being at loggerheads because of the fact that some voted Remain, while others voted to LEAVE.
Was there no discussion and debate in these families during the nine month or so run up to this event?
I know that my daughter and I have had some in depth discussions about the vote and the implications....there was no doubt in my mind how members of my family would vote.....but had there been differences of opinion, then that is what they would have been.....not a major fallout.

As for professions having their own dictionary - yes and this was always so that those not 'in the know' were kept out of the loop.
That is why Doctors wrote most of their stuff in Latin...it sounded impressive and it kept the ordinary man ignorant.

[Margaret Pilkington]

And yes.....I can spell inconsistencies.....I don't know how I missed that until after the time when it could not be corrected.

I hear that George Osborne is now saying that taxes will have to rise and services will need to be cut.
Maybe he should be looking to prioritise where the money goes.
A curtailment of the foreign aid budget may help defray some of these rises and cuts.....and perhaps suspending the HS2 project in favour of ensuring that services like schools and hospitals do not bear the brunt of these cuts.
It would also be in order for ALL the politicians to take a hit.....and to get their backsides into gear and sort out the current disarray......sort out who is going to be leader PRONTO....because the uncertainty in all aspects of business and finance will continue until it IS sorted.
And if this is an attempt to spit in the eye of those who voted leave, just so that they can say'we told you so'.....doing Britain down to make a point is a dirty business.

[Hill Walker]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Hill walker your postis very interesting but I am unsure of the point of it(maybe I am being a bit thick - or maybe this is a tongue in cheek post). I thought politicians were educated men and women...and we have spoken to them in the past and they have PRETENDED to hear us...they have PRETENDED that they were concerned.....well until we had put our X in their box and then they disregarded everything that we ever said to them.
Yes our language is full of inconcistencies......and I know from my experience with foreign doctors that(as a nurse) some of them found it very difficult to understand. (you try explaining what a 'one night stand' is to a young chinese doctor)

If you are alluding to the question on the Ballot paper, I do not think it could have been made clearer.
And those people who are now saying that they regret voting to LEAVE the EU.......I would ask what they thought they were voting for?
There has been a report this morning about families being at loggerheads because of the fact that some voted Remain, while others voted to LEAVE.
Was there no discussion and debate in these families during the nine month or so run up to this event?
I know that my daughter and I have had some in depth discussions about the vote and the implications....there was no doubt in my mind how members of my family would vote.....but had there been differences of opinion, then that is what they would have been.....not a major fallout.

As for professions having their own dictionary - yes and this was always so that those not 'in the know' were kept out of the loop.
That is why Doctors wrote most of their stuff in Latin...it sounded impressive and it kept the ordinary man ignorant.

Margaret, sorry I thought I had pitched it about right, clearly I hadn't, blame a lifetime working in an environment where it was policy (original usage being 'intention' rather than current usage being 'rule') that whilst some use of computing facilities for personal use was permitted any usage for some topics (sex, religion and politics) was discouraged.


To clarify I am utterly appalled at the way all our representatives have acted before, during and since this referendum. To cite two examples. First the pronouncements on the effect that a leaving result would have on the financial markets was an obvious self-fulfilling prophesy. The markets and pound were going to twitch whatever the result, they like stability but their traders love a twitch, that's how they make money, and any excuse will do. The self-fulfilling prophesy could only make it worse. Secondly the promises of extra money for this and that (particularly the NHS) was stupid as nobody can guess what state the economy will be in after the several years it will take to untangle the current financial arrangements with Europe. A few maybes, possibles, like tos would have helped but only minimally.


Now that the result is in what do the politicians do. One party decides the best thing is to campaign for re-admission, one party decides to self-destruct, and one party decides to turn itself into a headless chicken. Do any of them say (with conviction) 'OK keep calm we have a lot of work to do'?


Some of the electorate is almost as bad. Some think we are already out! Some say 'Oh is that what I voted for!


But worst of all we now have lots of people and politicians trying to define what LEAVE actually means, and some of those definitions are potentially the worst of all possible combinations namely keep access to the market place by continuing to pay out but also pay the price of no say on policy and no control over borders etc! Or another scenario, negotiate some sort of a deal and then have another referendum to ratify it.


Its all in the language. Before the event the IN campaigners should have clearly stated what they thought the future plans of the EU are and where they think its going. The LEAVE campaigners should have clearly stated what they thought LEAVE meant and what they thought the implications of this would be. Ok I know nobody has a crystal ball, the future cannot be accurately predicted but thoughts, aspirations and intents can be. Virtually all we got was from both sides was 'codswallop' which gives leave for people to say 'I didn't understand' or 'what I really meant was'. Like I say its all in the language and the word 'LEAVE' in this context is still to be defined, several politicians have already questioned it, and some have attempted their own definition.


Unlike you Margaret I did not do extensive research before voting, and I do not criticise you in any way for doing it your way. I based my judgment on living and working in what has already happened and my perception of the way things were developing and would continue to do so. In doing things this way I had to discount many things which many think of as great advantages/disadvantages of the EU. We as a country are perfectly capable of coming up with good ideas (eg NHS) and great failures of judgment (eg giving away our industrial base).


We have a result we should accept it and its consequences and get on with. It may be for the best it may not but as someone I know often says 'better to live with results of your own judgment than someone else's'.


RANT OVER


By the way I like the 'one night stand' example. My 'chop down/up' came from a conversation with a very well educated guy from Iraq who was stranded over here by the first Gulf war. His knowledge of English words was far greater than mine but his initial ability to use/interpret the words produced several conversations that all who were present will remember till their death. I should add that this situation did not last and before he left (for Canada) he gave me a book of English poetry he had written.

[Barrie Yates]

I wonder, should Parliament need to vote on the Exit from the EU, how our representative in Parliament will vote?
The referendum vote was purely a personal vote and I do not criticise our MP for voting the way that he said he was going to, even though he had also stated that he felt we should leave the EU.
If it becomes a Parliamentary vote then is he going to follow the obvious desire of his constituents - over 60% of them and vote for Leave, thereby ignoring them and their choice, or is he once again going to follow the party line?

[Margaret Pilkington]

OH, I did not consider it a rant at all and what you say is perfectly true.......thankyou for your clarification. I thought perhaps I was just being a bit dense.

I think your comment about what the IN campaigners thought would be the strategy and what the out campaigners saw as the future is very salient. They had plenty of time to come up with some ideas, although no-on could really be sure as it hasn't been done before(well not on this scale anyway).
Instead the campaigners did a pretty dire job of guesstimating (and both sides were as bad as each other) figures...worse still these guesstimates were delivered as facts.
Anyone with half a brain should have been able to tell that NO-ONE knew exactly what the outcome would be.

I also think that the tory party were convinced that the vote would be to stay in the EU....and that was a major misjudgement...they believed the polls and yet again the polls were wrong.

Yes I did do quite a lot of reading and research, but I also used my life experience as well(some people call it common sense, but it really isn't common at all).
I liked your maxim about accepting the result and getting on with it and living with the results of your own judgement rather than that of someone else's...that sums up my reason for voting leave very succinctly.

NO-ONE said it would be easy,but then the most worthwhile things in life never are.
We need to get some britches ar$e steam generated now and sort out the fisons.

[accyman]

great news that corbyn is out or near as dam it

as should every MP be that voted remain against their constituents wishes

[Margaret Pilkington]

Jeremy Corbyn says he is going nowhere despite an overwhelming vote of no confidence.
172 votes against him with only 40 MP's supporting the leader.
I cannot see how he can survive very long.

[accyman]

good riddence to him and the sooner the better

he and others like him would still bend over and take it up the you know where from europe

yesterday he was ranting about how leave voters were racists and was more concerned about syrian refugees than fixing the UK and making sure it got the best for it in the coming future

he should leg it up north and go jump in to bed with that jimmy crankie look alike

[cashman]

Thing is, though he aint been very good at all (in my eyes) he was voted leader by people whoever they happen to be, by a huge majority, last i heard that was democratic, The majority of Labour MPs have never really supported the man, the people who voted him in bothered to pay the subs and are grass roots people,as far as i'm concerned many Labour MPs have forgot the meaning of Democracy, and by calling on him to quit, you are actually backing a nest of vipers imho. I have just seen on twitter our own MP says Never once has Jeremy Corbyn said he supports Labour!! funny that, Can you recall our MP supporting his constituents over brexit? cos i certainly cant. Well to be perfectly honest i would rather support Corbyn than an MP who does that.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Yes Jeremy Corbyn was democratically elected by people who paid £3 a pop for a vote.
But a man of honour who loses the confidence of his MP's would be getting his hat and coat on for the sake of the party.
He is like a football manager whose team suddenly decide they aren't going to play for him anymore. He cannot do the job standing alone or with such weak support as is apparent.

The whole situation demeans the Labour party, at a time when they need to be solid and unified.

If those people who paid to vote Jeremy Corbyn into the leadership, were doing it to divide the party...their work is done...it is cetainly looking that way.

[cashman]

Well it looks more to me like those MPs suck and people are falling for this crap, helped by the media, theres been nothing ive seen today thats telling us about the stuff thats going on in Calais, among other things like how stocks have picked up, Its the media who is unsettling the public, try being cynical in that respect Margaret. check this stuff up, and see what they aint telling us.