Browser Woes? - Page 3

KIPAX · 14-09-2004, 15:10

Thats why they have an ALT tag for people who cant see or dont want to see pictures. Therefore the ALT tag replaces the picture and nothing to complain about.

Just because it didn't validate doesn't mean it wouldn't work.. only that the chances are it wont work on all browsers..

entwisi · 15-09-2004, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIPAX

Like I say.. nowt wrong with IE .. its mostly people who hate Microsoft who are against it..... I dont use outlook or any MS email client or anythign so they cant integrate and hackers cant get at my email lists or owt

Nothing wrong with it? Sorry to burst your bubble but I think you should see how IE conforms to W3C DOM conformance tests.

IE5.5
W3C DOM Conformance Test
Level 1 Core/HTML Interfaces FAIL
Level 1 Core/XML Interfaces FAIL
Level 2 Core Interfaces FAIL
Level 2 HTML Interfaces FAIL
Level 2 XML Interfaces FAIL
Abstract View Interface FAIL
Generic Style Sheet Traversal FAIL
CSS Styles [Views] FAIL
CSS2 Properties Interface [CSS] FAIL
Event Handling Infrastructure FAIL
User Interface Events [Events, Views] FAIL
Mouse Events [UIEvents] FAIL
HTML Events [Events] FAIL
Document Mutation Events [Events] FAIL
Document Range Interfaces FAIL
Document Traversal Interfaces FAIL

Your browser passed 0 of 16 tests.

I believe IE6 managed to pass 1 test.

Whereas

Konqueror

Level 1 Core/HTML Interfaces PASS
> Level 1 Core/XML Interfaces PASS
> Level 2 Core Interfaces PASS
> Level 2 HTML Interfaces PASS
> Level 2 XML Interfaces PASS
> Abstract View Interface FAIL
> Generic Style Sheet Traversal FAIL
> CSS Styles [Views] FAIL
> CSS2 Properties Interface [CSS] FAIL
> Event Handling Infrastructure PASS
> User Interface Events [Events, Views] PASS
> Mouse Events [UIEvents] PASS
> HTML Events [Events] PASS
> Document Mutation Events [Events] PASS
> Document Range Interfaces FAIL
> Document Traversal Interfaces FAIL
>
> Your browser passed 10 of 16 tests.

-------------------------------------
> Mozilla:
> -------------------------------------
> Level 1 Core/HTML Interfaces PASS
> Level 1 Core/XML Interfaces PASS
> Level 2 Core Interfaces PASS
> Level 2 HTML Interfaces PASS
> Level 2 XML Interfaces PASS
> Abstract View Interface PASS
> Generic Style Sheet Traversal PASS
> CSS Styles [Views] PASS
> CSS2 Properties Interface [CSS] PASS
> Event Handling Infrastructure PASS
> User Interface Events [Events, Views] FAIL
> Mouse Events [UIEvents] PASS
> HTML Events [Events] PASS
> Document Mutation Events [Events] FAIL
> Document Range Interfaces PASS
> Document Traversal Interfaces FAIL
>
> Your browser passed 13 of 16 tests.
> ----------------------------------------
>
>

Seems to suggest that IE does have the odd thing or 15 wrong with it

Ian

entwisi · 15-09-2004, 09:24

Found the URL ( site has been taken down but Google cache is your friend)

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...nce_test&hl=en

Ian

KIPAX · 15-09-2004, 09:32

You can have all the tests you want... IE works OK and always has. However there are a lot of MS haters around who would like to prove otherwise... Sorry but the proof is in the pudding. IE works

Hands up everyone who is ditching IE and getting another browser based on the above test....... Hmmmmm no one ?

WillowTheWhisp · 15-09-2004, 11:35

To the uninitiated can you please explain what a mouse event is?

simon · 15-09-2004, 12:11

I changed to Mozilla a while ago and will not be going back to IE not due to any test's but just due to IE allowing my computer to be filled with things I DONT want, and Mozilla does not and seem's better thought out

I am a computer novice so that is why i have done the above, I am sure you can (if you know what you are doing) set up IE to work how you want it to, I could not but Mozilla does it automatically.

entwisi · 16-09-2004, 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIPAX

Hands up everyone who is ditching IE and getting another browser based on the above test....... Hmmmmm no one ?

Sorry mate but I know of dozens of people at work who have 'Seen the light' probably not due to the above tests directly but due to the fact that Mozilla/Firefox do what they want. Built in google, Pop up Stopper and totally configurable if you want to play.

Standards are there for a reason. How many people would like it if VW suddenly deceided that the accelerator should be on the left and the clutch on the right. Me thinks their market share would drop rather rapidly. If you build web sites/apps for a living then it is a real pain making sure your site looks right in IE despite it having passed W3c Validators. More importantly it costs TIME & MONEY.

IIRC the latest stats showed Mozilla gained over 10% market share back in the last 6 months.

I have nothing directly against Microsoft. If their product worked, was decent value for money and didn't compromise my system then I will happily use it. Unfortunately most of their software is lucky to fit one of the above.

My 2p anyway.

Ian

WillowTheWhisp · 16-09-2004, 07:29

I've got built in Google and pop up stopper.

KIPAX · 16-09-2004, 07:34

Quote:

I have nothing directly against Microsoft. If their product worked, was decent value for money

It works and its free. How much more value for money do you want?..... you sure your not one of these Bill gates haters only you sure come accross as one.

As for mozila getting an extra 10% of the market.. well according to most stats they dont even have 10% let alone an extra 10%

Your not even talking a good argument... the only facts you show are pretty useless and even you admit no one would change browsers after reading them.

Millions upon millions of people us IE and it works great... most internet users are using it.... If you spend the rest of your life trying to convince them it doesnt work (when they can see it does) then your still not going to convince enough people to make the slightest difference because for every one person you convince... thousand more start using it..

When it doesn't work then i will stop using it.. not when someone tries to convince me with figures that it doesnt work..

jrenshaw · 16-09-2004, 09:44

Ok guys I think we are getting confused a bit. The reason IE ends up having it's home page changed etc. is simple and also the same reason that MS OS's are seen to be insecure. Hackers go for MS. That's it if the same hackers went at Mac, LINUX, or different browsers then they would probablt get an equal amount of problems. This put's MS in a tough position a victim of their own success. Apprently Mozilla based browsers now take up 15% of webusers as this increases so will the 'problems', currently it's just not worth the hassle when you can go for MS and get 70% of browsers. I have tried these other browsers but find sites that don't render (yes lazt developers) but I never have a problem with IE ,so I end up going back.

WillowTheWhisp · 16-09-2004, 09:49

I tend to do everything through AOL anyway. If the IE homepage has changed it has only ever been when one of the kids has clicked "make this your homepage" when they've been on a site and it's simple enough to get back to the default page I had in the beginning.

Occasionally I minimise AOL and go direct through IE but that's rare. I'm one of those people who likes to have loads of things going at once - Busman will tell you I have far too many windows open and programs running.

KIPAX · 16-09-2004, 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrenshaw

Ok guys I think we are getting confused a bit. The reason IE ends up having it's home page changed etc. is simple and also the same reason that MS OS's are seen to be insecure. Hackers go for MS.

Absoloutly.. hackers target anything MS more than anything else... Microsoft servers get attacked more than linux servers which is why I host on anything but MS.. the whole world seems to be against Bill Gates and MS so they are the hackers main target

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrenshaw

That's it if the same hackers went at Mac, LINUX, or different browsers then they would probablt get an equal amount of problems. This put's MS in a tough position a victim of their own success. Apprently Mozilla based browsers now take up 15% of webusers as this increases so will the 'problems',

I am guessing the 15% figure is from netscape or someone.. certainly not from MS who would give a differnt figure... Also with more people buying PCs with IE already configured then I would say they outnumber the poeple knoledgeable enough to be able to change browsers or even want to

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrenshaw

currently it's just not worth the hassle when you can go for MS and get 70% of browsers. I have tried these other browsers but find sites that don't render (yes lazt developers) but I never have a problem with IE ,so I end up going back.

Exactly my point.. IE works ... I am not a great fan of MS and as already stated I wont use there email software which 90% of the population seems to use... But there browser works.. Also as a developer (no i dont make websites) I ahve to see what the majority see...

As for all this about mizlla getting 15% of the market... take a look at the AUG stats for a certain website I run

MS Internet Explorer 604808 92.3 %
Unknown 24658 3.7 %
Mozilla 16113 2.4 %
Safari 3164 0.4 %
Netscape 3152 0.4 %
Opera 2193 0.3 %
Firebird 334 0 %
Konqueror 93 0 %
ANT Fresco 90 0 %
Links 90 0 %

92% MS IE and 8% covers the rest put together.... They are real figures from a real website

entwisi · 16-09-2004, 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIPAX

It works and its free. How much more value for money do you want?..... you sure your not one of these Bill gates haters only you sure come accross as one.

Free? No its not, It (as MIcrosoft happily admit) is a core componenet of its operating system which certainly costs money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIPAX

As for mozila getting an extra 10% of the market.. well according to most stats they dont even have 10% let alone an extra 10%

Always be lies dam lies and stats, I tend to use industry agreed figures published by independant parties. Have a look here http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIPAX

Your not even talking a good argument... the only facts you show are pretty useless and even you admit no one would change browsers after reading them.

I think you need to read that carefully. Statistics will not change minds. Useability will. Not having to avoid the latest phishing scam/ buffer overflow etc is just another bonus. With regard to your stats, I am assuming (perhaps you can confirm) that they are for this site, a forum used by Joe Public who without trying to upset anyone are normal users who will probably admit they know very little about IT. If you were to take the stats from somewhere technical like The Register or a site like B3TA the mix would probably be far closer even skewed the other way.

Isn't it a strange fact that despite the majority of web sites are being hosted on Linux by far the majority of attacks are directed at IIS. I have the logs to prove it.

Microsoft believe in security through obscurity. This clearly does not work. *nix was built on model where users are seperated from system. Microsoft seem to be happy for everyone to be admin. Until Microsoft seperate these two there will always be problems. That is why the current figure quoted for the time taken for an unprotected windows box visible on the internet to become a spam zombie riddled with viruses is less than 10 minutes! If you'd like to try the same on my Linux server I'll happily turn off the firewall adn give you the IP. Lets see if you can alter a sample page on my web server ,tell the name of a file on the filesystem in a pre determined place, or send an email from my box.

PS your figure of 93 for Konqueror must be wrong, I'm on here far more than that

Ian

KIPAX · 16-09-2004, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by entwisi

I think you need to read that carefully. Statistics will not change minds. Useability will.

Thank you.. Thats my argument in a nutshell.. IE works for the vast majority of people.. Hard to argue with that eh

Quote:

Originally Posted by entwisi

Microsoft believe in security through obscurity. This clearly does not work. *nix was built on model where users are seperated from system.

hence why I have my sites hosted on *nix

Quote:

Originally Posted by entwisi

PS your figure of 93 for Konqueror must be wrong, I'm on here far more than that

theres no way I can get access to this sites logs and when Roy comes back from Germany if he cares to share you will find he shows the vast majority are IE and he doesnt like IE but his logs will show

Quote:

Originally Posted by entwisi

Statistics will not change minds. Useability will.

So long as both sides of the debate agree on this then IE wins the day... because it works