Monkey steps - Page 3

DaveinGermany · 14-02-2010, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by katex

Mmmm . there all food for thought Dave. They may have been 'manky' .. meaning grim and dirty, and evolved to monkey.

Monks ... weren't any then when these were built.

As for the cannon theory ... reckon Retlaw will soon be back shooting you down on this one ...

Shot down in my prime ?

for making a few shots in the dark !

life can be so unfair

Retlaw · 14-02-2010, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by katex

Mmmm . there all food for thought Dave. They may have been 'manky' .. meaning grim and dirty, and evolved to monkey.

Monks ... weren't any then when these were built.

As for the cannon theory ... reckon Retlaw will soon be back shooting you down on this one ...

No cannons round here, there were some old ones up on Coppice at one time but they disappeared in 1940. Also brass monkeys have nowt to do with cannon balls. As for the other one that some one kept a monkey, before the fire station and the houses for the firemen, you could'nt see any dwellings from there that were nearer than Grange lane.

Its that dammed Atarah's fault, she were a little monkey when she were a kid.

Retlaw..

Tealeaf · 14-02-2010, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

. Also brass monkeys have nowt to do with cannon balls.....

Retlaw..

Agreed that brass monkeys have nowt to do with cannonballs (I'm amazed that the myth still persists). However, Powder Monkeys do have everything to do with cannonballs - men as well as boys running and carrying supplies from the magazines below decks to the gunnnery crews on the decks above. There probably would have been a hundred or so of them involved on a major warship such as HMS Victory.

I'm quite sure that if these steps attracted young lads to fool around on some 160 years ago someone no doubt would have drawn a similarity to activity aboard a Nelsonian or later ship and hence conferred such a sobriquet.

Retlaw · 14-02-2010, 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Agreed that brass monkeys have nowt to do with cannonballs (I'm amazed that the myth still persists). However, Powder Monkeys do have everything to do with cannonballs - men as well as boys running and carrying supplies from the magazines below decks to the gunnnery crews on the decks above. There probably would have been a hundred or so of them involved on a major warship such as HMS Victory.

I'm quite sure that if these steps attracted young lads to fool around on some 160 years ago someone no doubt would have drawn a similarity to activity aboard a Nelsonian or later ship and hence conferred such a sobriquet.

The myth still persist because of Hollywood, showing pyramids of cannon balls on the main deck.
Cannon balls were kept in racks next to the guns on the gun decks, three men manned each gun. After the first shot swab the bore with a wet mop, drop in the powder charge (which was in a linen bag), then the ball and ram it home that split the bag of powder and acted as a patch to seal the bore, then these two would return the gun to battery, the gunlayer then cocks the frizen and primes the pan, or inserts the friction fuse, and gets hold of the lanyard ready to fire on command,
whilst the powder monkeys (young boys because of confined spaces) are continually coming up through the hatches from the magazine delivering more charges.
The gun decks also had to be kept wet to prevent any spilt powder being ignited, and the racks had to be kept filled with cannon balls.
These men would and also have to be battle ready to act as boarding parties.
They also had their other jobs when no battles were on.
Retlaw.

Tealeaf · 15-02-2010, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

The myth still persist because of Hollywood, showing pyramids of cannon balls on the main deck.
Cannon balls were kept in racks next to the guns on the gun decks, three men manned each gun. .....whilst the powder monkeys (young boys because of confined spaces) are continually coming up through the hatches from the magazine delivering more charges.
Retlaw.

The naval term for the rack was a "shot garland".

Anyway, I've just looked at the first piccy again and those steps do give a very confined, closeted appearance, similar to that which steps leading to deck hatches on a man o' war would have appeared, so possibly there may be something in the theory. Of course, that is just what it is

Tealeaf · 15-02-2010, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

.
Cannon balls were kept in racks next to the guns on the gun decks, three men manned each gun. .......whilst the powder monkeys (young boys because of confined spaces) are continually coming up through the hatches from the magazine delivering more charges.
Retlaw.

The naval term for the rack was "shot garland".

Anyway, I've looked again at the first picture and it is does give a similar enclosed, somewhat claustrophobic appearance to the steps leading to the deck hatches on a 19th century Man 'O War, so maybe there is something in the theory. But a theory is all that it is, because of course, we have no hard evidence. Still, it's fun to speculate.

To continue with the naval parlance, I bet those steps have been used as heads on more than one occaision.

Acrylic-bob · 21-02-2010, 13:41

The steps have been called 'Monkey Steps' for as long as I have known them, certainly since the begining of the sixties. Why was never explained to me and I was then too incurious to ask.
I was told of Bunny and his donkey just after I left school and started work, the story ran that one day Bunny turned up at the Market minus donkey and when he was asked why he is said to have replied 'Ahh dunno, Ahh jus geet it used to not eatin an it deed on mi.'

Retlaw · 21-02-2010, 14:27

I was told of Bunny and his donkey just after I left school and started work, the story ran that one day Bunny turned up at the Market minus donkey and when he was asked why he is said to have replied 'Ahh dunno, Ahh jus geet it used to not eatin an it deed on mi.'[/quote]
A couple of pictures of Alfred (Bunny) Barnes.
He use to appear on the Stage at Accy Hippodrome with his donkey which wore boxing gloves, and pretend to box with it.

Theres also a tale of Bunny coming down Manchester Rd one night with his donkey cart, when he spots a copper, so he unharnessed the donkey and put it on the cart and took up the shafts and carried on. Copper stopped and said where's the lamp Bunny, (you were supposed to have a lamp hanging on the back end of carts)
Bunny replied don't ask me ask the driver.

Retlaw.

DaveinGermany · 21-02-2010, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

I was told of Bunny and his donkey just after I left school and started work, the story ran that one day Bunny turned up at the Market minus donkey and when he was asked why he is said to have replied 'Ahh dunno, Ahh jus geet it used to not eatin an it deed on mi.'

A couple of pictures of Alfred (Bunny) Barnes.
He use to appear on the Stage at Accy Hippodrome with his donkey which wore boxing gloves, and pretend to box with it.

Theres also a tale of Bunny coming down Manchester Rd one night with his donkey cart, when he spots a copper, so he unharnessed the donkey and put it on the cart and took up the shafts and carried on. Copper stopped and said where's the lamp Bunny, (you were supposed to have a lamp hanging on the back end of carts)
Bunny replied don't ask me ask the driver.

Retlaw.[/quote]

Just had a look at the pictures you posted, I assume in the background it's a Pub ? but I also assume it no longer exists in the present day & age. Also in the second picture it shows a horse harnessed to the cart, was this prior to, or after his Donkey ?

Retlaw · 21-02-2010, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

A couple of pictures of Alfred (Bunny) Barnes.
He use to appear on the Stage at Accy Hippodrome with his donkey which wore boxing gloves, and pretend to box with it.

Theres also a tale of Bunny coming down Manchester Rd one night with his donkey cart, when he spots a copper, so he unharnessed the donkey and put it on the cart and took up the shafts and carried on. Copper stopped and said where's the lamp Bunny, (you were supposed to have a lamp hanging on the back end of carts)
Bunny replied don't ask me ask the driver.

Retlaw.

Just had a look at the pictures you posted, I assume in the background it's a Pub ? but I also assume it no longer exists in the present day & age. Also in the second picture it shows a horse harnessed to the cart, was this prior to, or after his Donkey ?[/quote]
If you look at the pictures you will see he is a lot older where he is holding the head of the horse.
Like a lot of other pubs in Accy its long gone. Retlaw.

Tealeaf · 21-02-2010, 20:35

I have another theory as to the origin of the 'Monkey Steps'.

As many of you are aware, Hartlepool have a football team in the league whose nickname is the 'Monkey Hangers'. While this may, on the face of it, appear rather a derogatory term, most residents of that town are rather proud of the label. The origin goes back to the Napoleonic Wars and the wrecking of a French ship on the rocks by the town. The only survivor from the incident was the ships monkey, whom the local townsfolk - not being the most intelligent of people - took to be a Frenchman, and a spy to boot. After rigourus interrogation - there being no do-gooding civil rights lawyers around in those days - no confession could be obtained from the unfortunate creature and so it was hanged.

It has occured to me therefore, that given the large influx of Frenchmen into England after 1789 and then again after 1815, (many with a scientific and manufacturing background) it is highly possible - in fact, probable given the fast emerging local industries - that some will have arrived in Accy. Would one of them have lived close to these steps, therefore and hence been referred to as the 'French Monkey'? Or even better, would someone have hung a Frenchman on the site of these steps so that from that day to this they are known as the monkey steps?

Anyway, it's only a theory.

cashman · 21-02-2010, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

I have another theory as to the origin of the 'Monkey Steps'.

As many of you are aware, Hartlepool have a football team in the league whose nickname is the 'Monkey Hangers'. While this may, on the face of it, appear rather a derogatory term, most residents of that town are rather proud of the label. The origin goes back to the Napoleonic Wars and the wrecking of a French ship on the rocks by the town. The only survivor from the incident was the ships monkey, whom the local townsfolk - not being the most intelligent of people - took to be a Frenchman, and a spy to boot. After rigourus interrogation - there being no do-gooding civil rights lawyers around in those days - no confession could be obtained from the unfortunate creature and so it was hanged.

It has occured to me therefore, that given the large influx of Frenchmen into England after 1789 and then again after 1815, (many with a scientific and manufacturing background) it is highly possible - in fact, probable given the fast emerging local industries - that some will have arrived in Accy. Would one of them have lived close to these steps, therefore and hence been referred to as the 'French Monkey'? Or even better, would someone have hung a Frenchman on the site of these steps so that from that day to this they are known as the monkey steps?

Anyway, it's only a theory.

ya sure that was Hartlepool T? sounds more like Burnley to me.

Retlaw · 21-02-2010, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

I have another theory as to the origin of the 'Monkey Steps'.

As many of you are aware, Hartlepool have a football team in the league whose nickname is the 'Monkey Hangers'. While this may, on the face of it, appear rather a derogatory term, most residents of that town are rather proud of the label. The origin goes back to the Napoleonic Wars and the wrecking of a French ship on the rocks by the town. The only survivor from the incident was the ships monkey, whom the local townsfolk - not being the most intelligent of people - took to be a Frenchman, and a spy to boot. After rigourus interrogation - there being no do-gooding civil rights lawyers around in those days - no confession could be obtained from the unfortunate creature and so it was hanged.

It has occured to me therefore, that given the large influx of Frenchmen into England after 1789 and then again after 1815, (many with a scientific and manufacturing background) it is highly possible - in fact, probable given the fast emerging local industries - that some will have arrived in Accy. Would one of them have lived close to these steps, therefore and hence been referred to as the 'French Monkey'? Or even better, would someone have hung a Frenchman on the site of these steps so that from that day to this they are known as the monkey steps?

Anyway, it's only a theory.

Are you related to Hans Christian Anderson by any chance, he could tell good stories.

There is nobody in the 1841/51 census returns with a frog name. There were quite a few that came from pudding land and settled in Accrington, several from Embsay. Could have been one of them daft beggars.
There was F Steiner at Church, but he wasn't a frog.

Lets just put it down to some local wag giving them the name Monkey Steps, which then caught on, and they've been that ever since.
Theories are just that a theory, proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Retlaw

Tealeaf · 22-02-2010, 21:56

Yo Retlaw!

I now have another theory.

As you are aware, the 1850's saw a great flowering in the introduction of foreign flora, fauna and the like into the British Isles (think of Darwin and Joseph Banks). One of the species intoduced was that of the Chile Pine - also known as the 'Monkey Puzzle Tree' - when fully grown, a reet monster of a thing.

So could there have been such a tree up 'yon? And could someone have built steps up to it? The timing seems about right.

It all makes sense to me

katex · 22-02-2010, 23:02

LOL Tealeaf .. I googled that one and thought a possibility, good though eh ?

I like the one re. the Powder Monkeys best .. that would be great, except no nautical connections in these parts.

Hey up ... Retlaws lurking ... ready to tell us off no doubt ..