The Coppice 'Gun Carriage' - Page 3

Retlaw · 04-07-2012, 21:56

Whilst searching for pictures of the floods at Rising Bridge, I came across this picture which I had forgotten about, it will give every one a better idea of what the cannons & the carriages looked like.

Retlaw

cashman · 04-07-2012, 22:38

Thats a cracker, nice un walter.

jaysay · 05-07-2012, 09:03

Ya cracking photo Walter

SoulManic · 20-07-2012, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Whilst searching for pictures of the floods at Rising Bridge, I came across this picture which I had forgotten about, it will give every one a better idea of what the cannons & the carriages looked like.

Retlaw

Apologies for being off-line for the past few weeks.
That really is an excellent photo of the Coppice cannon and will be most useful if we do manage to inspire a restoration project. One thing I did notice is the iron wheels which to me points to garrison cannon rather than ship's cannon which would be more likely to have wooden wheels. Anybody got any other thoughts on this?

Retlaw · 20-07-2012, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulManic

Apologies for being off-line for the past few weeks.
That really is an excellent photo of the Coppice cannon and will be most useful if we do manage to inspire a restoration project. One thing I did notice is the iron wheels which to me points to garrison cannon rather than ship's cannon which would be more likely to have wooden wheels. Anybody got any other thoughts on this?

I think wheels on the gun carriages could would be changed if transferred from ship to garrison use, rather than different carriages.
Gun decks on ships were kept swabbed with water to prevent spilt powder ignitions during drill or battle conditions.
Charges for the guns were in bags, stored in the magazines, and the powder monkeys, (young boys) would carry them from the magazines up the ladders & through hatches to the gun decks. Bags could get snagged or torn & powder spilt
Retlaw.

Wynonie Harris · 23-07-2012, 14:45

Cracking photograph, Walter. I remember my old fella telling me about attending Stanley's last match at Peel Park v Oldham, before World War II was declared. He was standing next to an Oldham fan who looked up to the cannons at the top of the Coppice and declared, "Eeh, they're ready for t'war 'ere!"

SoulManic · 28-07-2012, 15:04

On a recent walk on the Coppice I noticed that the carriage remnant has now been turned the right way up. Thanks to whoever managed to do that because it is now obvious that an assumption of mine based on my original photos was incorrect:-

The small block on its side in my original picture 1 below is in fact for the trunnion on the other side of the frame. At some stage in the past this section has broken free from the main remnant and someone has non-positionally secured it to the main frame with aluminium strips - I suppose just to try to keep the whole thing together.

The 'front' block in my original picture 4 below had actually been pivoted through 90 degrees and is actually the trunnion block on the side to which its iron-work is still attached.

Seeing the remnant the right way up has definitely helped to get a better idea of its original layout.

Barrie Yates · 29-07-2012, 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

I think wheels on the gun carriages could would be changed if transferred from ship to garrison use, rather than different carriages.
Gun decks on ships were kept swabbed with water to prevent spilt powder ignitions during drill or battle conditions.
Charges for the guns were in bags, stored in the magazines, and the powder monkeys, (young boys) would carry them from the magazines up the ladders & through hatches to the gun decks. Bags could get snagged or torn & powder spilt
Retlaw.

HMS Victory certainly has wooden wheels on the gun deck cannons, but I have a memory of the upper deck cannons being on some sort of wooden ramp - no wheels at all. Iron wheels could have caused a spark even though the decks were watered.
A lovely photograph, don't remember ever seeing them like that, my only memory is of the wooden carriages. Thank you Retlaw

SoulManic · 05-08-2012, 20:19

Latest photo of the carriage (right way up) with rough sketched outline of it's full original shape. Looking at the postcard pictures there appears to be some sort of ironwork trolley under the front wheels but it's not clear enough to work out the design. Anybody got any ideas? - steering mechanism perhaps?

Retlaw · 05-08-2012, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulManic

Latest photo of the carriage (right way up) with rough sketched outline of it's full original shape. Looking at the postcard pictures there appears to be some sort of ironwork trolley under the front wheels but it's not clear enough to work out the design. Anybody got any ideas? - steering mechanism perhaps?

Those cannons ex ship, ex garrison were never intended to be used other than from fixed positions, that is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading. Horses would have great difficulty dragging that lot any where.
Cannons for field use had an entirley different carriage. Look at the Armstrong Field Gun circa 1850's that will give you some idea of a horse drawn field carriage.
Even if you did manage to make a replica of the carriage what good would it be without a cannon, where would you put it, on the Coppice, the local yobbery would have it within days.
Retlaw.

SoulManic · 06-08-2012, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Those cannons ex ship, ex garrison were never intended to be used other than from fixed positions, that is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading. Horses would have great difficulty dragging that lot any where.
Cannons for field use had an entirley different carriage. Look at the Armstrong Field Gun circa 1850's that will give you some idea of a horse drawn field carriage.
Even if you did manage to make a replica of the carriage what good would it be without a cannon, where would you put it, on the Coppice, the local yobbery would have it within days.
Retlaw.

Always so negative Walter. I've said before that the shame is on us if we let the yobs dictate our actions. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that these cannon were field guns to be drawn by horses - you dreamed that one up yourself. I thought we had already agreed that they were garrison cannon. I was only suggesting the possibility that the iron structure under the front may have been some mechanism to assist in re-aligning the cannon. That structure must have had a purpose and I'm open to suggestions (other than being horse-drawn) as to what.

Retlaw · 06-08-2012, 18:54

That structure must have had a purpose and I'm open to suggestions (other than being horse-drawn) as to what.[/quote]
From my last post. The structure had a purpose.
It is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading.
You mentioned steering, that implies transportation too another location. I don't intend to be negative, just can't see the point of making a replica, why not make a 1/8th scale model of a complete cannon & carriage and put it on display some where safer than up the Coppice.

SoulManic · 06-08-2012, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

That structure must have had a purpose and I'm open to suggestions (other than being horse-drawn) as to what.

From my last post. The structure had a purpose.
It is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading.
You mentioned steering, that implies transportation too another location. I don't intend to be negative, just can't see the point of making a replica, why not make a 1/8th scale model of a complete cannon & carriage and put it on display some where safer than up the Coppice.
[/quote]

Comparing the eye on the front of the carriage with that on the rear of the cannon barrel and those (still present) on the sides of the carriage it appears to be much too small to serve the same purpose, ie. hauling the cannon back to its firing position. Also there's a lot more to the ironwork under the front than just an eye sticking out. That's what makes me think that it could be for sideways alignment as the cannon is reset for firing.

Retlaw · 06-08-2012, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulManic

From my last post. The structure had a purpose.
It is shown by the eye on the rear of the cannon & the eye at the front end of the carriage, they are for attaching the ropes & pulleys for return to battery position, after firing and reloading.
You mentioned steering, that implies transportation too another location. I don't intend to be negative, just can't see the point of making a replica, why not make a 1/8th scale model of a complete cannon & carriage and put it on display some where safer than up the Coppice.

Comparing the eye on the front of the carriage with that on the rear of the cannon barrel and those (still present) on the sides of the carriage it appears to be much too small to serve the same purpose, ie. hauling the cannon back to its firing position. Also there's a lot more to the ironwork under the front than just an eye sticking out. That's what makes me think that it could be for sideways alignment as the cannon is reset for firing.[/quote]
Its evident that you don't know much about ships cannons, or siege cannons, side ways movement is referred to as Windage, and was achieved by the use of 6 ft long iron shod levers.
Those eyes may seem too small for your inexperienced point of view but thats what they were used for, for a realistic episode of ships cannons at work I suggest you watch the film Master & Commander, thats as near as the real thing as you will ever get.
As for fire arms and such, I suggest you ring Fulwood Museum & ask for Jane the Curator, then ask her of my knowledge on the subject.

SoulManic · 07-08-2012, 16:14

Its evident that you don't know much about ships cannons, or siege cannons, side ways movement is referred to as Windage, and was achieved by the use of 6 ft long iron shod levers.
Those eyes may seem too small for your inexperienced point of view but thats what they were used for, for a realistic episode of ships cannons at work I suggest you watch the film Master & Commander, thats as near as the real thing as you will ever get.
As for fire arms and such, I suggest you ring Fulwood Museum & ask for Jane the Curator, then ask her of my knowledge on the subject.
[/quote]

Thanks for pointing out that I don't know much about ship's or seige cannon (actually I don't know anything at all about them) and that your knowledge of firearms and such can be confirmed by a museum curator (there I was thinking you didn't know your carriage from your trunnion).
Can we stop this silly bickering now.
I think we are pretty clear now that your knowledgeable believe is that the front small eye and its connecting ironwork under the front of the carriage to which the front wheels appear to be attached is simply to haul the cannon forward in a straight line. OK, got it, but still not fully convinced. Now let it drop, but preferably not on my foot.