Drugs Live; the Ecstasy Trial. - Page 4

jaysay · 25-09-2012, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

Professor Nutt/Imperial College London Professor David J Nutt is involved I think it may be his baby, as that is what his department do on a regular basis; investigate and reasearch the effects of various drugs on people to see if there are any benefits to be gained from them etc.

Think you must have a thing about this Prof Nutt, you keep harping on about him, would his hero worshipers be Nutcases

jaysay · 25-09-2012, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Restless

I would like to put forward that Less, Jaysay and Cashman all volunteer to be participants in the audience

Ya i'd make a quick exit to mate

Margaret Pilkington · 25-09-2012, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

The point is society bangs on about MDMA as being dangerous yet our GP's are prescribing drugs on a daily basis that dont' do what they are supposed to do and in many cases make people worse and can make people suicidal.

Warning: Antidepressants May Lead to Suicidal Tendencies

Well I have been retired from the NHS for 10 years and it was known about then.............the interesting word in the link is MAY.
Some anti-depressants help some people.......like some anti hypertensives work better on some patients.
In medicine there is no 'one size fits all' no matter what the drug companies might have you believe.

jaysay · 25-09-2012, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Well I have been retired from the NHS for 10 years and it was known about then.............the interesting word in the link is MAY.
Some anti-depressants help some people.......like some anti hypertensives work better on some patients.
In medicine there is no 'one size fits all' no matter what the drug companies might have you believe.

Ya Margaret nobody knows that better than me

Margaret Pilkington · 25-09-2012, 10:22

As Sue says, there are drugs out there which were formulated for one purpose and they were useless for that purpose(for whatever reason.....i.e, they didn't do what they were supposed to, or had other effects that were damaging.etc, etc) but were found to be useful in other areas of medicine...maybe at different doses or formats.
I have nothing at all against MDMA being used for medical purposes...under supervision/prescription, but am against it being taken for recreational purposes......where the person using it has not been assessed by a medical practitioner. In this respect it is an unknown quantity...you just do not know how the person will react to it. The other difficulty with recreational drugs is that they support a whole raft of criminal activities....and because the pushers want to make more money the drug is adulterated with all kinds of substances...which in themselves may be harmful when taken.

susie123 · 25-09-2012, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

About 6 years ago there was a big hoohah about anti-depressants not working, there were reports in all the papers like the Independant claiming this as fact.

There was also a program on TV around similar time that gave evidence that a lot of people commit suicide after being put on anti-depressants such as Seroxat, by GP's in America and this country.

These issues now seem to have been swept under the carpet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

The point is society bangs on about MDMA as being dangerous yet our GP's are prescribing drugs on a daily basis that dont' do what they are supposed to do and in many cases make people worse and can make people suicidal.

Warning: Antidepressants May Lead to Suicidal Tendencies

Yes that Panorama prog about Seroxat was a few years ago now.

Several points can be made about that drug and others that are used for similar conditions. Some apply to other drugs in general as well

Even the largest and best structured clinical trial cannot hope to discover all side effects in all people. Only use of a drug in the wider community can find these out
Would you rather have depression or take a pill to try and help it? The taking of any drug carries risks and consequences
You don't hear from folks who have used the drug successfully
While people may expect the drug to be an instant fix, these things take time to enter the system. This may account for the initial occurrence of anxiety, suicidal tendencies etc which may be caused by the drug or by the underlying condition which has not yet been affected by the drug. These effects should clear up as the drug is continued
For similar reasons the drug should not be stopped suddenly but come off gradually so that its effects on the mind and body can be controlled
Some of the unwanted effects of the drug may be due to reactions with other medications or treatments
Other antidepressants have side effects too, it would probably be impossible to design a drug that was totally free of them
As the link in Kes's post suggests, other substances have been linked to increased suicide risk as a side effect

So the drug continues to be prescribed and appears to have fewer side effects than older antidepressants. Only further research and trials may lead to anything safer and better tolerated.

On a personal level, and slightly off the subject of mind altering drugs, some Accywebbers may know that at the moment I am undergoing a course of chemotherapy. The possible known side effects of the drugs used were pointed out to me at the start and it has been interesting to note how and when these occur during treatment. As I mentioned above in respect of Seroxat, the drugs take time to work their way in to the system and the side effects show up when this has happened. They may be unpleasant and unpredictable but at least they show something is going on and anything unusual will be reported and added to the volume of data known about such substances. So our knowledge increases.

Margaret Pilkington · 25-09-2012, 10:42

Seroxat was also used in a trial of Breast cancer sufferers who were on Tamoxifen.
a lot of the ladies on Tamoxifen reported serious menopausla symptoms.......seroxat was used to diminsh these effecst with good results.
Spot on Post Sue.
We continue to learn by people using these drugs....under medical supervision.

susie123 · 25-09-2012, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

As Sue says, there are drugs out there which were formulated for one purpose and they were useless for that purpose(for whatever reason.....i.e, they didn't do what they were supposed to, or had other effects that were damaging.etc, etc) but were found to be useful in other areas of medicine...maybe at different doses or formats.
I have nothing at all against MDMA being used for medical purposes...under supervision/prescription, but am against it being taken for recreational purposes......where the person using it has not been assessed by a medical practitioner. In this respect it is an unknown quantity...you just do not know how the person will react to it. The other difficulty with recreational drugs is that they support a whole raft of criminal activities....and because the pushers want to make more money the drug is adulterated with all kinds of substances...which in themselves may be harmful when taken.

People have been using psychotropic drugs since the dawn of time and it has been argued that altered states of consciousness have led to the birth of religions and culture.

The fact that science today can come up with new substances with these properties means that there will always be new experiences to try and there will always be people who want to experiment with them, as there have always been.

Surely the fact that illegal drugs support criminal activities is an argument for removing this connection by removing bans. Then substances could be sold under controls such as apply to alcohol and tobacco and the pushers would not have the upper hand. Then individuals would be free to decide for themselves whether or not to partake of any particular drug - as they do with alcohol and tobacco. The harm they may do to themselves, or not, would be up to them.

kestrelx · 25-09-2012, 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

Ya i'd make a quick exit to mate

I would like to see you (and the other 3) tied down on TV and injected with recreational drugs!

Less · 25-09-2012, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by kestrelx

I would like to see you (and the other 3) tied down on TV and injected with recreational drugs!

You do put forward a good argument for Euthanasia.

Quote:

Like a cat with 9 lives!

Somehow I suspect that if you are like that cat you must be on your last life by now, so post carefully.

Margaret Pilkington · 25-09-2012, 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by susie123

People have been using psychotropic drugs since the dawn of time and it has been argued that altered states of consciousness have led to the birth of religions and culture.

The fact that science today can come up with new substances with these properties means that there will always be new experiences to try and there will always be people who want to experiment with them, as there have always been.

Surely the fact that illegal drugs support criminal activities is an argument for removing this connection by removing bans. Then substances could be sold under controls such as apply to alcohol and tobacco and the pushers would not have the upper hand. Then individuals would be free to decide for themselves whether or not to partake of any particular drug - as they do with alcohol and tobacco. The harm they may do to themselves, or not, would be up to them.

I'm not entirely sure that legalising them would remove the criminal element.
The government would slap a tax on these recreational drugs...and then there would be those(criminals) who would try to sell them from illicit sources.....people would buy to circumvent the system, and so that they didn't feel like they were paying tax...I think most people like to feel they can steal a march on government taxes......duty free cigarettes are a rpime example of this.......I know people who have come back from Spain(or any other overseas destination with suitcases full of cigarettes/tobacco and booze.

The only advantage I can see for legalising recreational drugs is to improve the purity.......and regulate how they are sold. I'm still not in favour.

kestrelx · 25-09-2012, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I'm not entirely sure that legalising them would remove the criminal element.
The government would slap a tax on these recreational drugs...and then there would be those(criminals) who would try to sell them from illicit sources.....people would buy to circumvent the system, and so that they didn't feel like they were paying tax...I think most people like to feel they can steal a march on government taxes......duty free cigarettes are a rpime example of this.......I know people who have come back from Spain(or any other overseas destination with suitcases full of cigarettes/tobacco and booze.

The only advantage I can see for legalising recreational drugs is to improve the purity.......and regulate how they are sold. I'm still not in favour.

I think it's a very difficult problem really. If they are legalised then people will take that as a sign it's alright to take them, but society doesn't want to give out that message.

Then if it is legalised what does that mean? That sources where they come from now will still be in place? Or will the gangs in operation now be stopped by the Police - so that problem would not go away over night! Or will the government allow private companies to manufacture them for quality control. That could mean higher prices. Higher prices then could mean that criminals still have a market for cheaper drugs, that are impure - then kids still will die from taking stuff that is not pure. So it just becomes a savage circle - with no solution.

I really don't know what the answer is?

Anyone seen this film "Altered States" about a Professor experimenting on himself taking magic mushrooms in an isolation tank. Directed by Ken Russell

- I saw it in the early 80's at the pictures - here is the trailer.