Money is the root of evil

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Pudwoppa

I didn't say that one exists or had ever existed. I said it's daft to rule out the possibility that society would progress past money, and that it may or may not be better than what we have now. I made no assertions as to how the logistics would pan out.

Sounds a little like the Soviet Union.

Where everyone, from professor to peasant, had equal status, and they all ate cabbage.

[MargaretR]

I think you underestimate the capacity for compassion that early civilisations had.
There is archeological evidence that nearthandel society protected and sustained severely disabled members of their groups.

[kestrelx]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

We might - and it would end greed and corruption.
People will be judged by their personal value to society and not by monetary value. So start by being nice and generous to others to accumulate respect. Respect and barter will be the way to trade for what you need.

Utopia - I know - but people survived before money was invented, and may need to do again.

The long term destruction of power grids by solar flares could be the start of it.... ie. banking systems would collapse.

Have you watched the Zeitgeist video's Margaret? Here is one...



Money causes a lot of evil and it is used for controlling people. How many people die because of it. Before the Wall Street Crash of 1929 the Germans didn't want to know about Hitler. It was only after years of poverty and the crash of the German Economy that Hitler was taken seriously because people believed he could sort things out. The Germans had massive loans that brought prosperity, but after the Wall Street Crash the American Banks called in the loans and caused massive unemployment which hit Germany badly - leading to people turning to Hitler. Massive inflation caused by calling in loans that the German Government at the time couldn't afford to pay back!

[garinda]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

I think you underestimate the capacity for compassion that early civilisations had.
There is archeological evidence that nearthandel society protected and sustained severely disabled members of their groups.

Should have been more specific, and said each provide for themselves, or their own.

I've never seen any evidence of them providing palliative care for those who could no longer fend for themselves, who had no family.

Without taxation, raised collectively from a monetarist system, there would be no funding for those nature had decided weren't fit enough for survival.

That's not taking into account human nature itself, and the fact some lazy arses wouldn't work at all if there was no reward.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cashman

more chance of winning the lottery than getting 2 weeks outa you these days.

Hadn't read this post when I saw ya

[garinda]

Originally Posted by kestrelx

Money causes a lot of evil and it is used for controlling people. How many people die because of it. Before the Wall Street Crash of 1929 the Germans didn't want to know about Hitler. It was only after years of poverty and the crash of the German Economy that Hitler was taken seriously because people believed he could sort things out. The Germans had massive loans that brought prosperity, but after the Wall Street Crash the American Banks called in the loans and caused massive unemployment which hit Germany badly - leading to people turning to Hitler. Massive inflation caused by calling in loans that the German Government at the time couldn't afford to pay back!

Go back and read your Junior Book of World History.

German was suffering economically because of the astronomical inflation caused by the repayments imposed under the Treaty of Versailles, in 1919. Well before the Wall St. crash.

Hitler's rise to power started at the begining of the 1920's.

It's simplistic to believe that Nazism prospered purely because of the economic situation under the Weimar Republic.

They also tapped in to peoples' fear and prejudice, and the need for scapegoats.

A similar base prejudice that you exhibited last week, when you posted some homophobic crap on this forum.

[kestrelx]

Originally Posted by Pudwoppa

I think it's strange how people refer to a society without money as a regression. Maybe it could be a step forward rather than a step back: a natural and meaningful progression. Talking about it in a derogatory sense only shows how engrained our reliance on a financial system has become. Maybe future thinking or technology will create the possibility of moving past a money based society whilst maintaining our current standard of life; or even improving it. Who knows.

We are not the finality of human evolution or technology - as with every other generation we will be surpassed. Many aspects of our way of life and thinking will almost certainly be obsolete one day, and thinking otherwise is delusional. Permanence is temporary given a long enough timescale.

I have to say though, thinking that a lack of money would solve all of the worlds problems is a bit naive if I may be so bold. There will always be people who will take advantage of any system and people who fall victim to it - that's just life.

Even the US Government are in Debt...

US '10 days from debt disaster' - *World News - MSN News UK

Those who they are in debt to are the real rulers of this planet!

In the red!

[Boeing Guy]

Seeing you hate money, I have a solution for you, why don't you give me all your money and possessions purchased with it. Let's see how long you last.
Has it never occurred to you that money is the highest form of bartering? In return for your time, seeing we only have a limited amount of it, and energy, skill you get paid a agreed amount of numbers. These numbers can be bartered to purchase goods to keep you alive and enjoy at a agreed deal (price).

Without money, there would be no consumer goods, maybe a good thing. No fuel, no electricity, no gas no running water, no medicines, no hospitals, no dentistry, no help for the infirm, no supermarkets etc. Now to some this sounds great, well if you want it so bad, I suggest you move to central Africa and join a tribe of people there, because believe me there are people living like that in the world today.

This is why we have international aid programs trying to help them, seeing
they have high mortality rates.

The problem is that you live in a nice cozy world of fuzziness and only post to tell the rest of us that we are wrong. Whether mankind can rise above consumerism and take care of each other toward a common goal, is debatable. It has been tried in the old USSR, China and Cuba, but as George Orwell said, 'all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others'

[Pudwoppa]

Originally Posted by garinda

No, you talked of a 'society without money' not being a 'regression'.

Utopia.

Every unconnected society that's ever existed on this planet, have eventually evolved some sort of monetarist/bartering system, when they've evolved from being hunter gatherers.

It's what made us civilised, rather than just providing food and shelter for ourselves.

Make enough pots to sell, and hopefully you'll have earned enough money to feed yourself when you're old, and racked with arthritis, and no longer able to work.

A place with no money, where we only provide for our own immediate needs, in a survival of the fittest, dog eat dog world, wouldn't be some utopian idyll...it would be a nightmare.

Again, you've misinterpreted my point Perhaps I'm being unclear.

I neither praised nor shunned a monetary system or lack thereof. I simply said that thinking the current system is the 'be all and end all' is naive.

I also specifically said it may be worse than what we have now. Hardly a vision of Utopia.

I agree that money has benefited society and contributed to the birth of civilisation, but I just see it as a stepping stone onto something else rather than the finality.

[Pudwoppa]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

It has been tried in the old USSR, China and Cuba, but as George Orwell said, 'all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others'

All good examples, but just because no-one has got it right doesn't make it impossible (please - no communist remarks; I'm not suggesting any kind of system).

There's a lot of pessimism about humanity in general emerging in this thread. Seems like most are happy with money as they perceive it to be 'the lesser of two evils'. Settling for second best is not progress.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Pudwoppa

All good examples, but just because no-one has got it right doesn't make it impossible (please - no communist remarks; I'm not suggesting any kind of system).

There's a lot of pessimism about humanity in general emerging in this thread. Seems like most are happy with money as they perceive it to be 'the lesser of two evils'. Settling for second best is not progress.

Well the thing is if there was no money somebody would invent it simples

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Pudwoppa

All good examples, but just because no-one has got it right doesn't make it impossible (please - no communist remarks; I'm not suggesting any kind of system).

There's a lot of pessimism about humanity in general emerging in this thread. Seems like most are happy with money as they perceive it to be 'the lesser of two evils'. Settling for second best is not progress.

You suggest society may be better without a financial system, but don't say why, or how it could work.

Primitive man did live like this.

You fend purely for yourself, otherwise you perish.

Since every unconnected society in the world evolved into seeing a bartering system afforded more freedom, the chances of us ever having a non-monetarist system again are minute. If we did, it would be a new Dark Ages.

If someone has something you want, and they are happy to give it to you, in exchange for other goods, or the means to buy other goods, that's civilisation.

If someone has something you want, and you club them over the head and take it, that isn't.

[Pudwoppa]

Originally Posted by garinda

You suggest society may be better without a financial system

Yes - it maybe better or maybe not. All I said is that it is likely to change.

Originally Posted by garinda

but don't say why, or how it could work.

Yes - I wasn't offering a way forward. I simply said it's likely to happen.

Originally Posted by garinda

Primitive man did live like this.

You fend purely for yourself, otherwise you perish.

Since every unconnected society in the world evolved into seeing a bartering system afforded more freedom, the chances of us ever having a non-monetarist system again are minute. If we did, it would be a new Dark Ages.

If someone has something you want, and they are happy to give it to you, in exchange for other goods, or the means to buy other goods, that's civilisation.

If someone has something you want, and you club them over the head and take it, that isn't.

Again the binary viewpoint. Black or white. Civilisation or anarchy. I don't subscribe to that.

[Pudwoppa]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well the thing is if there was no money somebody would invent it simples

True. I'm not suggesting that money isn't currently necessary. Or isn't necessary in any society to facilitate a stage in it's progression. But I can't believe that the human race isn't capable of a system better than that which we have now. Even if I can't predict what that will be.

At any period in history, people couldn't foresee the changes in front of them. Yet their way of life slowly disappeared and a new one that they could never have dreamt of slowly took it's place. Some of these changes were relatively small, and some were huge. A change away from a financial system would obviously be a pretty big one - but that doesn't make it impossible.

If the world as we know it is the best we can achieve, then we've failed as a species. Apologies if I'm getting a bit high and mighty

[cashman]

About as possible as a comeback by "Elvis"