Accrington Stanley

[Less]

O.K. I don't follow a great deal of football, I've been to a couple of Stanley Matches and enjoyed my time there.

Could someone please explain, (in simple terms to the rest of us), what has happened to create the Dilemma that Stanley seems to be facing, I know the team means a great deal to a lot of people, I don't want it to go away, but how have thing's brought a greatly known team to what appears to be such a possible sad end?

Then perhaps those of us that don't actually support football can understand how we can help?

[Outback Ozzy]

Simple answer is that the debt relates to the previous regime and dates back to 2005/6 (I'm sure someone will tel me if I have this wrong). Club originally went to court in June and thought they had 12 months to pay off the debt. They were then told last week that they have only 8 weeks to raise £308,000 to pay off the HMRC debt or they will be closed down (or go into administration to keep going but end up with a 10 point penalty) neither of which is ideal to the club.Whilst you may have only been a couple of times, the big problem with Stanley is that we have Premier League clubs either side (with better facilities) and a number of higher league clubs within 30 miles (Wigan, PNE, Blackpool, both Manchester clubs and Bolton). Since Stanley folded in 1962, the older generation of the town has gone to supporting other teams and since reforming in '68, the club has had a core of support from the town (currently around 1,000) but need more people to come onto the Crown to help out. Funding is in place to upgrade facilities but this will not happen overnight. However, the regime at the club have high hopes of being able to continue in the Football League for lots of years to come.

[maccawozzagod]

the crux of the problem I would say was that ASFC grew too fast too quick. The off the field set up was unable to keep up with the on the field set up. All of a sudden we found ourselves in the Football League pretty much quite by accident!

At this point we had:
the smallest crowds (and still dwindling) in the entire League
the poorest facilities in the entire league.
the poorest paid players in the entire league (which goes hand in hand with the first two)

One of the advantages that goes with joining the 'Professional' League is that you get a massively bigger pay out from sponsors and TV (£70k as opposed to £400k) but much of this goes towards things such as Youth Academies and Football in the Community teams. Other clubs in the league already have these set up and have had for years. Once they are established they start to become marginally profitable with sell on fee's for developed youth etc. But setting them up is slow and expensive.

As I said earlier we came too far too quick. We had six full time staff when we left the Unibond in 2003 and six full time staff when we joined the Football League in 2006. Under Eric Whalley there was an attitude of spending money on players rather than the backroom set up - we needed the better players in order to compete on the field and carry on reaping the benefits! But we didn't compete, results dipped so crowds dipped. The sponsors didn't come forward as anticipated (or were lost due to incompetence).

The straw that broke the camels back was when Fraser Eagle went to the wall early this year. They still owed us £100k at that point and as you could guess that left a huge hole on our limited budgets.

The large debt we have now is majoritively down to 2006 when we joined the Football League. This debt has slowly reduced over the last three years but late payment charges and interest have crippled it. The losses suffered last season (Fraser Eagle etc) meant that we were unable to pay it at all.

So that brought us to June. The high court and HMRC claimed the debt must be paid in full over the next 12 months and adjourned for 2 months to see what happened. The club made no payments in that period as they hadn't actually been told (but the money is in the bank to pay them). They had budgeted to pay 18k a month plus lump sums as and when. Playing budgets were cut, and huge restrictions everywhere else were made in order to find the extra 18k.

Then this week at the 2nd court hearing the HMRC claimed the full amount to be paid over the next eight weeks as they weren't happy with the clubs attempts to make sure the debt could be covered.

It may transpire that provided we can make a substantial payment (at least half?) then they will allow us to revert to the 12 month plan. But they could certainly play hard ball and wind us up for being even just a few thousand pounds short.

Football is a funny old game as they say. Nobody went out with bucket collections when a national institution such as Woolworths was in the mire did they? But football is different - even if you are not a fan. Football clubs give hope and inspiration to their many fans. They help to prop up local economies and they provide focal points for 'tourism'. They provide venues for the many and varied activities that communities need and they of course provide employment (over 100 people are actively paid a wage by ASFC).

General public generosity in helping to save Accrington Stanley is not sent to the current or previous owner or Chairman, it is sent to the 'club' which is and hopefully will be there to transcend generations. Unfortunately ASFC hasn't always been this way because in 1962 it was allowed to fall for an, even then, paltry amount of £62k. A generation or two of football fans grew up without having a notable Football Club at the heart of its community. With your help, and of all those around us, that won't happen again.

There is no certainty that these problems will never arise again. But what does need to happen (and has been happening for a couple of years tbh) is that ASFC needs to get back into the community and re-establish what I believe are core values. Love your community and it will love you. But time has conspired against us this time and that core value has to go the other way around.


Thank you all for reading and I hope you agree with my understanding of the situation.


Rob Russell
Chairman, ASFC Official Supporters Club

[sparkie]

The potted veiw of this whole thing at stanley at the minute is that the club have an outstanding debt of £308,000 to HM Revenue & Customs. This debt dates back to 2006 when the previous chairman was in residence and is for outstanding tax and NI.

a couple of months ago the club was summoned to the high court to discuss this and left having 'agreed' a payment plan with them. However the club were summoned again last wednesday with a view to being wound up. The new Chairman and CEO of the club attended and managed to persuade HMRC to postpone the winding up order and instead the club have been given 8 WEEKS to find what they had originally been given twelve months to find.

The bottom line here is Stanley need to find £308,000 in 8 weeks or they will be wound up in the high court and the town will lose their football club once again.

any help is greatly appreciated. Please use the banners here on accyweb or go to Save our Stanley

Thanks

[Margaret Pilkington]

Thank you Less for asking the question......and the folk who have given the answers.
It makes a whole lot more sense now.

[cashman]

its a good thing IMHO that people like Less n MargaretP are interested enough to ask, me dad took me everywhere home/away with the owd stanley until its demise in 62, i was then one very upset teenager, Accrington no longer had a club, so i went to the rovers, was a season ticket holder fer nearly 30 yrs, my dad sadly never watched another live game after stanleys demise, he was always convinced they would never be allowed back into the football league, due to being unable to complete there full fixtures back in 62, despite being a rovers fan fer all those years when Stanley returned to the league i started drifting back, now i'm a season ticket holder at stanley fer the 1 st time in my life, end of the day its my TOWN, from having a bar in spain i know fer fact Accy Stanley is held in affection from many many areas in britain, maybe thats the milk ad? maybe the 62 demise? maybe cos they are a "Founder Member" of the football league? who knows the reason? what i do know as others have said our home town club must NOT be allowed to die again. and will do all i can to help em survive, n hope enough folk feel the same, also they have started a great scheme fer the kids this season, would be a crying shame if that went.

[Wynonie Harris]

Even if you're a non-football fan, it's worth considering just what an invaluable source of publicity the club is to the town (and, yes, I know there has been some unwelcome publicity in recent months but that is transitional and will pass). There are much bigger towns in the UK that no one outside their immediate area has ever heard of. But go anywhere in (and quite often outside) the UK and say you're from Accrington and most people mention Stanley. As Cashy says, for some strange reason the club is held in affection in the national consciousness in a way that no other small (or even large) football club is.

It'd be a shame to throw all that away again, but there are other reasons for wanting Stanley to survive. The new administration at the club are much more concerned with taking the club back into the community, as Macca describes. There is also a £1.2 million ground development in the pipeline, paid for by outside sources, which will make the Crown a much more attractive place to watch football in and also help it to develop further as a focus for the local community and to develop independent income streams. If the club fold, obviously all that will never happen. Because of the town's size and geographical location, Stanley is never going to be a premiership giant, but it could be a thriving, self-sufficient little club, given the right circumstances.

As non-football fans, it is of course up to you whether you make a donation or not, but hopefully we have given you something to ponder on before you make your decision.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by cashman

its a good thing IMHO that people like Less n MargaretP are interested enough to ask, me dad took me everywhere home/away with the owd stanley until its demise in 62, i was then one very upset teenager, Accrington no longer had a club, so i went to the rovers, was a season ticket holder fer nearly 30 yrs, my dad sadly never watched another live game after stanleys demise, he was always convinced they would never be allowed back into the football league, due to being unable to complete there full fixtures back in 62, despite being a rovers fan fer all those years when Stanley returned to the league i started drifting back, now i'm a season ticket holder at stanley fer the 1 st time in my life, end of the day its my TOWN, from having a bar in spain i know fer fact Accy Stanley is held in affection from many many areas in britain, maybe thats the milk ad? maybe the 62 demise? maybe cos they are a "Founder Member" of the football league? who knows the reason? what i do know as others have said our home town club must NOT be allowed to die again. and will do all i can to help em survive, n hope enough folk feel the same, also they have started a great scheme fer the kids this season, would be a crying shame if that went.

Hardly Eloquent Cashy but spoken from the heart. Many of the Stanley faithful old guard where deeply hurt by the cold and callous events of 62, I’ve told before of how it effected my Grandfather who in 65 pushed his 5 year old grandson from his knee and said, “we don’t talk of such things in this house” My grandmother rebounded on him and said “Don’t be like that Tommy, he isn’t to know” I had never seen this big hearted man so hurt as he was that day. It came about due to two Stanley players that came to Church Kirk School to talk about the resurgent Stanley, One was a Goalie, the other a forward…who they where I never remember, but I became a Stanley fan that day. Of my grandfather, he died of Cancer in 69 never seen his beloved Stanley flourish….but he knows were back, and he knows we’re staying.

[BERNADETTE]

One thing that is puzzling me about all this is why did they make a payment plan with HMRC and then not stick to it? Surely the bussiness brains at Stanley knew or should have known that defaulting on payments to HMRC is a no-no.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE

One thing that is puzzling me about all this is why did they make a payment plan with HMRC and then not stick to it? Surely the bussiness brains at Stanley knew or should have known that defaulting on payments to HMRC is a no-no.

when bernie,? under the impression they had 12 months. if yer talking before that, that was down the the previous Dictator....oops owner. the recent ones they were expecting to be notified of a date to start em as far as i'm aware.

[BERNADETTE]

Originally Posted by cashman

when bernie,? under the impression they had 12 months. if yer talking before that, that was down the the previous Dictator....oops owner.

At the meeting in June when they were allowed twelve months to pay, would have thought payment details were made clear to them. I really do hope the money is made to save them believe me

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE

At the meeting in June when they were allowed twelve months to pay, would have thought payment details were made clear to them. I really do hope the money is made to save them believe me

Bernie, that observation was made with a clear mind.
Monies collected for and on behalf of HMCE should not become the cash flow, or be used as the revenue of the club.
No matter who held the management at that time, the money is still owed to the Revenue.
It is a favour, not a right that the Revenue have held off.
If an agreement is struck as to the payment details and that agreement is not met, the Revenue have every right to foreclose.
Future investors will take this on board and it will take a very strong management team to convince those people that Accrington Stanley can be trusted.

[cashman]

thats the grey area royboy, thinking ya have n agreement for 12 months, unless its in tablets of stone ya aint IMHO, no-ones disputing the I.R. can change the goalposts. simple fact is 308K in 8 weeks must now be met, other crap is fer afterwards time aint on Stanleys side.

[groove]

At the end of the day Stanley have a bit of a cheek to come begging now after serious mis management...This club are a disgrace to the town.Most the team are arrogant scouse gits.We,v had them in the media nationwide after the betting scam (throwing games).And when the team went on a night out they behaved like animals.This club is corrupt to the core and should accept their fate as its well deserved IMHO

[Less]

Originally Posted by groove

At the end of the day Stanley have a bit of a cheek to come begging now after serious mis management...This club are a disgrace to the town.Most the team are arrogant scouse gits.We,v had them in the media nationwide after the betting scam (throwing games).And when the team went on a night out they behaved like animals.This club is corrupt to the core and should accept their fate as its well deserved IMHO

I take it that with such sentiments as the above you won't be contributing anything, (including a worthwhile explanation for the rest of us)?