Chip 'n' Pin

MUMMIBOO · 01-09-2004, 08:43

As most of you will know by now they are changing our bank cards to Chip 'n' Pin. Will it really be a safer way to shop? It works by you putting your card into the machine chip face down and you entering your PIN (Personnal Identification Number) supposed to be safer than using signature. This way people can't forge your signature therfore reducing card crime!

Now we have this installed in our shop and by Jan/Feb all shops will be using it and shops wont be able to accept a signature so what will happen if you forget your number as i know many people these days have more than one card and it can get confusing especially for the elderly.

I haven't come across one person who remembers the PIN for their visa or Mastercard as you don't use it to get cash out of the machine it's to expensive.

So here's my question: How do you think this will work, have you used chip n pin yet? Is it a good idea or not and why?

lettie · 01-09-2004, 09:12

With chip and pin you choose the number therefore making it easier to remember. I haven't used it yet, but they have had this system in New Zealand for quite some time. Over there it is known as EFTPOS. People use it for everything, they swipe their cards through petrol pumps, use it at local shops for the smallest purchases etc. Nobody carries cash. This does have some advantages in that the locals reckon that it has cut down on card fraud and that you rarely get muggings. I think it's a good idea and have no qualms about using this system. The thing with EFTPOS is that if your money isn't in the bank it will not let you pay. Therefore you cannot overdraw and incur bank charges without first arranging it with the bank.

mez · 01-09-2004, 09:44

yes lettie thats how it was in australia when i went in 1996 they did agree it was a better system

entwisi · 01-09-2004, 11:40

As lettie says, with C&P you can change your PIN number to one that you can remember. It will reduce card fraud as without the pin you cannot make a payment. The number of times I used my bank card when the signature had worn off and no-one challenged me was untrue. So lazy till operators are now removed from teh equation. Either you know your number and get the goods or you don't and teh transaction is declined. I know some people find it hard to remeber PIN numbers etc but at least with C&P you can make it a memorable number(birthday, wedding anniversary, house number, last 4 digits ofyour phone number etc)

I have used C&P loads of times at many different shops. One thing to be aware of is that it is perfectly acceptable to shield the pinpad from casual observers. Use your body if there is a queue of people behind you and if someone is looking over your shoulder refuse to enter the pin until they retreat.

Ian

MUMMIBOO · 01-09-2004, 13:16

As a cashier myself and certainly not 'Lazy' in any way i find the 'Chip 'n' Pin' rather difficult at the moment as if the customer does not know their pin then yes we can over-ride the system but this takes 30 seconds and this feels like forever when you have a line of people all staring at you waiting to be served. (not good when they are in a rush) as this could happen to the next person in line aswell.

Also where a signature strip has faded as a cashier i know the abuse you can get when asking a customer if they have something else with their signature on ' and quite often they dont, mainly men who just go out with their card not wallet/purse.

Bazf · 01-09-2004, 14:42

I think in these times of hightened sercurity its time the UK had a driving license with your photo and signiture on it and for those who dont drive an ID card with all your relavent information on. Britain is one of very few countries who dont have ID cards but does have the most credit card and bank card fraud. Could be a link?

Sparkologist · 01-09-2004, 14:46

I've come across the 'Chip & Pin' system whilst working in France. It has been in operation for a number of years there, and is reckoned to have cut down on card fraud significantly.

Having said that, I don't remember the number for my Visa card, so does this alienate me from the system?

janet · 01-09-2004, 15:17

You do have to have your photo on your driving licence now Bazf.I know my nephew has.

lettie · 01-09-2004, 15:28

If you need to update your license for any reason, they will include a photo. I think Grego's was put on when she changed her address. My drivers license is still the old mug shotless one, I have had ne reason to change it. I think that photo licenses or ID cards should be issued in this country. Never mind the do-gooders saying that it is turning into a 'big brother' society. If you've done nowt wrong then you've nowt to be afraid of. I'm looking forward to getting my chip and pin. As I've said before, I have seen this working in other countries and it seems to work well.

pendy · 01-09-2004, 17:02

I use chip & pin and I do find it easy. I don't have a problem remembering numbers, but if you do, you can always put it into your address book disguised as part of a phone number. You just have to remember which phone no!

I always have my passport with me, but I do agree that ID cards are a good idea. We had them during the war, so why not? It would cut down on benefit fraud, fraudulent driving licences (it happens a lot, no photo, so one driving licence between 10) and all sorts of abuses of the system. As Lettie says, you've nowt to be afraid of, and if you have then you should be afraid.

WINGY · 01-09-2004, 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkologist

I've come across the 'Chip & Pin' system whilst working in France. It has been in operation for a number of years there, and is reckoned to have cut down on card fraud significantly.

Having said that, I don't remember the number for my Visa card, so does this alienate me from the system?

Same here, France was the first place i saw it, and i believe that card fraud was reduced by 70% once the system was fully up and running.

Perran · 01-09-2004, 19:41

Can only be a good thing as far as im concerned. We have had our chip n pin terminal for about 3 mths now and found that about half of the ppl know their pin. It is a new system and ppl need time to adjust, thus the Jan 05 deadline. Whilst the system is still open to fraud (i.e someone gets your card and pin they could have a field day) it is far easier to change your pin than your signature. Also the checking is taken out of the cashiers hands thus human error is removed. In a few years time it will be second nature to us all. One thing I think is needed is a secondary ID like a picture on the reverse of the card. Still give it about 3 or 4 years and they will by introducing retina scans and fingerprint recognition....... there's a thought!

littlemo · 02-09-2004, 00:46

it's still something to be wary of, we've had several cases of fraud over here, particularly in gas stations, if the card is swiped twice- the cashier says it didn't go through 1st time) the 2nd transaction after you've entered your number is closed but the first is left open. they go back into it and by zooming in with whats on the security camera tape, work out your pin from there and just make a cash withdrawal. The scan that went on here did that for a few years, only taking small amounts out at a time therefore on your statement it didn't look like unusual activity. Therefore getting away with quite a large sum of money. so as it was pointed out below, always shield your entery, esp cause security cameras are usually pointing straight at the checkout and when putting gas in the car, forget about rounding it up to the nearest pound, who cares if this means the cashier has to add odd numbers, that way you'll always be able to catch any unusal activity from the gas station.

WillowTheWhisp · 02-09-2004, 08:37

I suppose however hard you try there will always be some unscrupulous person who will beat the system. This has to be more secure than the old/existing system. I have more than one card and can only manage to remember the pin numbers for the two which I use most. (In order to draw cash from ATMs) but I'm sure that as I get used to using the numbers it will be easier to remember them.

EFTPOS actually means "Electronic Funds Transfer at Point Of Sale" also known as EPOS (Electronic Transfer at Point Of Sale) and refers to the method currently in use here where a card is swiped through a machine as opposed to the older system where the cashier had to fill in a form which was then placed on top of your card in a contraption which had a piece they pushed back and forth resulting an the card image being impressed on the paper(s) (usually in triplicate). These were then included in the till in much the same way as cheques and sent through the bank clearing system. Your account was not debited until it reached your bank. They often had to phone the bank to verify that funds were available over a set amount (which could change on a day to day basis so that potential thieves didn't get blase about how much they could possibly get away with)

Now your account is debited immediately the card is swiped - hence the bit about not being able to accept the transaction if you don't have funds in the account. That's true up to a point (unless you have an agreed overdraft limit) but only if you are using a debit card. If you are using a credit card (the one where you borrow money and pay it back) then it will be accepted up to your credit limit.

I still think cards are safer than cash. If cash is stolen it's gone but at least with a card you have chance to phone up and put a stop on it.

MUMMIBOO · 02-09-2004, 08:52

It is quite true you do get a photo fitted drivers licence now and it has been that way for almost 3 years thats how long my partner has had his for you can also get it changed to one if you have a change of address or any other details which need amending.

I.D cards you can also get hold of over here now, you get a form ive seen then in the spar shops you fill it out send it off with a photo and a fee and they send you an I.D card the actual name for it is a UK CITIZENCARD, it is home office approved. you can visit WWW.citizencard.com for more info.