Old Pubs

[Wynonie Harris]

Nice shot, Jeff. That brings back happy memories!

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Bob Dobson

There was an Oak Tree in Acc as well as in Church. It was in Abbey St and closed down in 1929. I will dig up some info on it.

The Olde Black Bull ()its real name) was on King St, under the railway viaduct at the end of Hyndburn Rd It was Accrington's earliest pub, and the bridge over the river there is probably called Bull Bridge because it was close by the pub, whose name to locals would be shortened to The Bull. This spot was a main thoroughfare long before the turnpike was laid down and called Abbey St

The Oak Tree in may have closed down in 1929, BUT it was still operating as a pub in the 1930's & 40's.
I lived in Hargreaves St, and passed it practically every day, my best mate lived next door.
As for the Bull on Bull Bridge, IT WAS NOT UNDER THE VIADUCT, it was the only Coaching Inn, in the Old Hold of Accrington back in the 1600's, it was rebuilt in the 1700's.
The landlord in 1660 was Henry Emmot, he paid 6d in taxes to king Charles, on his restoration to the throne.
Retlaw

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

The Oak Tree in may have closed down in 1929, BUT it was still operating as a pub in the 1930's & 40's.
I lived in Hargreaves St, and passed it practically every day, my best mate lived next door.
As for the Bull on Bull Bridge it was the only Coaching Inn, in the Old Hold of Accrington back in the 1600's, it was rebuilt in the 1700's.
The landlord in 1660 was Henry Emmot, he paid 6d in taxes to king Charles, on his restoration to the throne.
Retlaw

and they demolished it fer a useless friggin car park.

[Bob Dobson]

OK The Bull was not UNDER the viaduct but under its shadow in the evening sunshine.

Possible that Dutton's appealed the Oak Tree's 1929 closure and it got re-instated. The Oak Tree over Church way was a Liin house. It is unlikely, but not impossible, that there would have been two pubs of the same name in the town. I will enquire.

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

As for the Bull on Bull Bridge, IT WAS NOT UNDER THE VIADUCT, it was the only Coaching Inn, in the Old Hold of Accrington back in the 1600's, it was rebuilt in the 1700's.
The landlord in 1660 was Henry Emmot, he paid 6d in taxes to king Charles, on his restoration to the throne.
Retlaw

Err....I've alway's understood a Coaching Inn to be a place for a horse change, refreshment and possibly an overnight stop over. I'm not aware of any regular scheduled coach services running North/South or East/West in the 1600's. The pub was certainly there from the 1600's (and probably before) but other than that it's use would have been as a general boozer and occaisional stopover for any toffs travelling north/south (east-west would have gone Burnley-Clayton-Blackburn or Haslingden-Blackburn). I can't see exactly how it can be described as a coaching house for any regular service.

Certainly, the White Swan & the Red Lion could be described as coaching houses in the first few decades of the 19th century.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Err....I've alway's understood a Coaching Inn to be a place for a horse change, refreshment and possibly an overnight stop over. I'm not aware of any regular scheduled coach services running North/South or East/West in the 1600's. The pub was certainly there from the 1600's (and probably before) but other than that it's use would have been as a general boozer and occaisional stopover for any toffs travelling north/south (east-west would have gone Burnley-Clayton-Blackburn or Haslingden-Blackburn). I can't see exactly how it can be described as a coaching house for any regular service.

Certainly, the White Swan & the Red Lion could be described as coaching houses in the first few decades of the 19th century.

Just because you have'nt found a regular coach run in the 1660's, doesn't mean that coaches didn't use it as such. There were 30 families paying taxes in the Old Hold of Accrington that year, I don't think the income from them, would have kept it running just as an ale house.
In those days a lot of people brewed there own ale, it would have been healthier than the local water supplies at the time.
The Red Lion didn't apppear until 1820's, the owner being Jacob Lang, the ratable value of the Red Lion was 56-5s-0d in 1828.
Retlaw.

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Just because you have'nt found a regular coach run in the 1660's, doesn't mean that coaches didn't use it as such. There were 30 families paying taxes in the Old Hold of Accrington that year, I don't think the income from them, would have kept it running just as an ale house.
In those days a lot of people brewed there own ale, it would have been healthier than the local water supplies at the time.
The Red Lion didn't apppear until 1820's, the owner being Jacob Lang, the ratable value of the Red Lion was 56-5s-0d in 1828.
Retlaw.

But that's just it, Walter. I have alway's understood the term 'Coaching Inn' to refer to an Inn which offered a regular coach service by some timetable (however loose). I have no doubt that the country gentry would have used the pub as a stop over, but until we can see documentary evidence that this was used as a regular route stop by a public coach service, then I can't see how this can be referred to as a Coaching Inn.

But you've probably got it right about the number of tax paying families and those brewing their own ale. 'Small Ale' was the stuff that people drank in place of water - certainly before coffee and tea - but not everyone brewed it - many bought it. I suspect the Bull - a pub I hold dearly - would have had a multi-function 400 years ago, of which feeding passing horses and their cargo was only a small part

[cashman]

i was always told in 60s the "Bull" was n old "Grain Court" whatever that was, twas the landlord Ken Green that told me, in recent times i have been told it was not, so aint a sodding clue.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

I wonder if the 'recipe' for Crystal Ale was kept after Matthew Brown/Lions was shut down. I assume it's the mixture of hops/malt but what exactly was it that gave it the gas? Was it the yeast? The brewing process? Whatever, it's a pint that's sorely missed and it would be nice to see one of the microbreweries resurrect the brew...some of the kids now don't know what they're missing.

I tried that Thwaites '3 C's' last weekend...a lovely brew. reminded me a bit of the old Boddingtons, before that got ruined.

Wasn't it called Crystal Ale because they used Crystal hops which was quite unusual? It certainly was a good pint.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

But that's just it, Walter. I have alway's understood the term 'Coaching Inn' to refer to an Inn which offered a regular coach service by some timetable (however loose). I have no doubt that the country gentry would have used the pub as a stop over, but until we can see documentary evidence that this was used as a regular route stop by a public coach service, then I can't see how this can be referred to as a Coaching Inn.

But you've probably got it right about the number of tax paying families and those brewing their own ale. 'Small Ale' was the stuff that people drank in place of water - certainly before coffee and tea - but not everyone brewed it - many bought it. I suspect the Bull - a pub I hold dearly - would have had a multi-function 400 years ago, of which feeding passing horses and their cargo was only a small part

Ee tharard wurk.
There were 3 ways into the Old Hold of Accrington in those days, which was used by travelers. From Burnley, down what later became Burnley Rd Circa 1828, from Whalley along what was later Whalley Rd, (built by Blind Jack o Knaresborough 1791/2) that route went down Milnshaw Lane, the other route came from Blackburn, and entered Accy along Allom Lane which came out facing the Bull.
Just because there weren't many regular coach services running into & out of Accy in those day, does'nt they couldn't up their prestige by advertising themselves as a coaching Inn.
Its surprising how many people moved round the country in those days.
Retlaw.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by cashman

i was always told in 60s the "Bull" was n old "Grain Court" whatever that was, twas the landlord Ken Green that told me, in recent times i have been told it was not, so aint a sodding clue.

Way back in the distant past, there was a building in Accy, now partly covered by the Clown Hall, it was known as Court Farm, where the de Lacy's held the annual Halmote Courts, 12 men formed a jury, led by de Lacy, or his representative, which tried all events crimes or misdemeanours, which had occured during the previous year. There used to be books in Accy library of these Halmote Courts. I think the first account is some time in the 1400's.
One episode still comes to mind, a woman was fined for sewing a shirt on a Sunday.
Retlaw

[Bob Dobson]

I've never heard the term 'grain court' but it might have had something to do with the corn mill just across the road in Hyndburn Rd, then called Hagg Lane.

I too think that 'coaching inn' can be a term which takes in horse-drawn travel of any sort. It could have been the reason why a farrier /blacksmith was just around the corner from The Bull. I think that the name Bull Brtidge is still visible in the wall of the old bridge somewhere near the car park entrance, pout there buy the County Council c 1890, but it is likely, certainly possible, that there was a bridge there before that, and before a bridge there would be just a ford. It could be said that this was the very centre of Accrington in (say) 1700

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Bob Dobson

I've never heard the term 'grain court' but it might have had something to do with the corn mill just across the road in Hyndburn Rd, then called Hagg Lane.

I too think that 'coaching inn' can be a term which takes in horse-drawn travel of any sort. It could have been the reason why a farrier /blacksmith was just around the corner from The Bull. I think that the name Bull Brtidge is still visible in the wall of the old bridge somewhere near the car park entrance, pout there buy the County Council c 1890, but it is likely, certainly possible, that there was a bridge there before that, and before a bridge there would be just a ford. It could be said that this was the very centre of Accrington in (say) 1700

always wondered how Haggs lodge got its name, now i know.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

Wasn't it called Crystal Ale because they used Crystal hops which was quite unusual? It certainly was a good pint.

I think it more likely to be "Crystal Malt" rather than the hops.

Crystal Malt: The Definitive Guide To Using and Making It

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Ee tharard wurk.
There were 3 ways into the Old Hold of Accrington in those days, which was used by travelers. From Burnley, down what later became Burnley Rd Circa 1828, from Whalley along what was later Whalley Rd, (built by Blind Jack o Knaresborough 1791/2) that route went down Milnshaw Lane, the other route came from Blackburn, and entered Accy along Allom Lane which came out facing the Bull.
Just because there weren't many regular coach services running into & out of Accy in those day, does'nt they couldn't up their prestige by advertising themselves as a coaching Inn.
Its surprising how many people moved round the country in those days.
Retlaw.

But that's exactly it, Walter - the dates. This stuff is all the later part of the 18C/early 19th - there is no evidence whatsoever about a coaching service in the 17th or even early 18th century. Logic would suggest that there would be a direct route south between Clitheroe and Manchester and a rough reconstruction of the topography of the time would suggest a route coming by Clayton and through Accy, but where exactly it would cross the river I don't know. But allowing for that, where is the evidence of a coach service?

I certainly don't buy an East/West route Accy-Blackburn, simply because of deep stream valleys to be crossed on the way - the Tinker, the Aspden and the Knuzden brooks. Thats's why Blackburn Rd was not laid down until after it was shown the canal could bridge the former two in the early 1820's

I have no doubt that wagons and private coaches stopped at and used the Bull; but my guess is their main travelling guests would have been sheep rovers and the like.