Once A CATHOLIC. - Page 2

JohnW · 13-08-2004, 10:52

I've been a non-believer now for many years. My wife, a devout Christian, though not a regular churchgoer, prays for me daily. Because of her beliefs and her constant requests for me to think deeply about it all; I have really made an effort to concentrate my thoughts in a positive way. However, the more I delve into my mind, the more convinced I am that there is absolutely nothing/no-one there. If there is someone there with ultimate power, then it is my opinion that he/she has either, made a damn mess of the whole thing, or has a very sick/perverse sense of humour.

Acrylic-bob · 13-08-2004, 17:09

But then again, 'The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.' (L.P. Hartley. "The Go-between")

I can recall coming back from holiday in Cleveleys, my father met us at the train station with the awful news that Pope John XXIII had just died. I can recall thinking that it was somehow right that it was raining, I felt there was some kind of link between the rain and my own tears. The shock that we felt was real and our grief was almost palpable. It was as though a member of the family had passed away. I can also recall -just- watching part of his funeral on television. It was the first time I had seen anything of this quasi-mythical place called the Vatican. To say that I was spellbound would be something of an understatement. I had never seen anything like it before. I think that one event, has coloured my life in ways that I can only now begin to guess at.

Will we and our children feel the same when the current incumbent eventually passes away? I somehow doubt it.

pendy · 13-08-2004, 17:16

Why once a Catholic? - nobody asked me. Somebody a lot bigger just poured water over me and mumbled a bit. What does that make me? I refuse to believe that somebody else can make promises on my behalf and expect me to be the one to keep them.

That said, I did all the Communion stuff, too, WITH ice cream wafers - dead posh.

Does anybody remember black babies? I think the money was for the missions, but if you paid 5 shillings you got to "adopt" one and give it its baptismal name. I sometimes used to wonder what I would do if they all turned up on the doorstep! I remember trying to call one Russell after my little cousin, but that was refused because it wasn't a saint's name. My friend Mary's mother's parents (bit convoluted that) wanted her to be called Marian, but the priest refused, on the same basis, so she was baptised Mary Ann, but always called Marian.

Why did we let them get away with it??

Acrylic-bob · 13-08-2004, 18:41

Why indeed. But there are other things that lurk in this particular closet, things that shame, things that can still hurt, things that can horrify. Shattered illusions are just the begining.

WillowTheWhisp · 13-08-2004, 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW

If there is someone there with ultimate power, then it is my opinion that he/she has either, made a damn mess of the whole thing, or has a very sick/perverse sense of humour.

It isn't God who has made a mess of things - it is mankind, human beings or whatever the polically correct term us. God doesn't control us like puppets on a string. We all have our free agency. Unfortunately by and large we don't seem to do very well with it do we?

Busman747 · 15-08-2004, 23:09

Wow!! Colour predudice is banned from this forum but it seems ok to ridicule peoples personal beliefs even though they have spent their lives living their life according to their religion!
I personally am an agonistic .....but respect my fiances (and her families) views that there is life after death and their beliefs reflect their attitude to life. I feel that this topic should be banned from the forum as it attracts the "non-believers" to make upsetting remarks to those that "believe." and without being accused of "sermonising" cannot reply to those who choose to ridicule their beliefs (goodbye karma!)

Religion is a personal thing and should not be aired in a nonchalent way on a forum such as this. I find it offensive even though I am a non-believer, how do those that believe feel!!
MICK, TAKE NOTE!

WillowTheWhisp · 15-08-2004, 23:16

Speaking as a believer I do not find remarks made by unbelievers to be personally upsetting to me. I know it's always been an age-old thing never discuss religion or politics but I don't mind other people's point of view and would defend their right to have an opinion different to my own. Then again it might have a lot to do with the fact that in the church I belong to we are not told what to believe but encouraged to gain our own testimony of different aspects of the religion. This also goes for the children who at first no doubt go along with what their parents are doing but by the time they reach 12 or 13 they are by and large very definite about where they stand. I have a ten year old who isn't averse to voicing her opinion too. It has got them through some very tough times.

Unlike some I do no feel happy thrusting my beliefs upon other people but gladly welcome a discussion anytime.

Acrylic-bob · 16-08-2004, 06:06

Busman 747 writes: >>I personally am an agonistic .....<<

Do we take him at his word? The trusty OED gives this definition:
agonistic.adj. polemical, combative. [from Greek agonostikos, related to AGONY]
or rather does he mean this:
agnostic, n. a person who believes that nothing is known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena [based on Greek gnosis 'knowledge']

It would be nice to know.

That being said, if Busman747 took the time and trouble to read all the posts in the thread he would see that I have taken care to point out that in contributing to this discussion I, in no way, seek to belittle or denigrate the faith which other people may hold dear. Nothing I have written is untrue or outside my own personal experience and I stand ready to defend every single word. True faith is a gem held within the heart that nothing can tarnish, least of all any mere words of mine.

As for banning any discussion, I would just like to point out that the experience of Catholicism informs a large part of the lives of the people of Accrington and District and has done so since before the Reformation. Placing an embargo on any discussion of the subject would hamper any attempt to understand the motives and social behaviour of a vast number of people, many of whom were instrumental in the development of the borough.

WillowTheWhisp · 16-08-2004, 09:16

Well if you look at the definitions you posted and at the fact that Busman says he is an agnostic you'll see he is using the word as a noun rather than an adjective which means that he describes himself as a person who believes that nothing is known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena.

I find it interesting how Catholicism features so strongly in this area and enjoy hearing people's memories of their childhood experiences. I have a friend who relates tales of nuns who put the fear of God in her. Having spent some time in Ireland I found a lot of people over there who relate similar tales of childhood and having the catechism drummed into them and yet some grow up with a very devout faith which somehow trancends all of that whilst others merely end up cynical about religion as a whole.

As for the actual priests and nuns etc, they are after all human beings and none of us are perfect. Unfortunately some of us are more imperfect than others and it's always those ones whyo make the most interesting stories. I used to pester the life out of Fr. Henderson at St. Joseph's by going round there asking him all sorts of deep and meaningful questions which he'd probably never had to bother thinking about before but I really wanted to know the Catholic view on such matters. At the time I was looking for a church to belong to as I was fairly disillusioned where I was and yet I had my own personal beliefs and faith. I also had a very close friend who was RC.

I remember Fr. Henderson being grumpy and irritable but also patient enough to try to answer my questions. I also remember him on one occasion when one of his parishioners who had Irish setters was walking her dogs along by the railway and one suddenly pulled the lead and she fell over. Although he went to see if she was OK he just said "If you had smaller dogs it wouldn't happen". That left us both laughing. It was just his way. Like the time he "punished" the congregation by making them sing a hymn again because it hadn't been sung to his liking the first time. Maybe other people have different memories of him but I'll always remember him fondly.

JohnW · 16-08-2004, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

It isn't God who has made a mess of things - it is mankind, human beings or whatever the polically correct term us. God doesn't control us like puppets on a string. We all have our free agency. Unfortunately by and large we don't seem to do very well with it do we?

I don't think the people in South West Florida had anything to do with making that hurricane that just did billions of dollars worth of damage and killed a few people. All I'm saying is, that if there is someone there with absolute power, why let a thing like that happen?

I am not trying to ridicule anyone's beliefs, I'm just giving reasons why I don't believe.

Alan Gilmartin · 16-08-2004, 23:31

They are just one of the the many experiences, in our lives. We are not hear to upset or belittle anyone. If someone dosnt like what's on the radio or tv or on your computor go to another channel or turn it off, but dont throw a wobbly.

Acrylic-bob · 18-08-2004, 12:15

While we are, I think, right in criticising the excesses of the Church, you cannot deny they know how to put on a good show. I came across this pic of Pius XII, leaving the Vatican after saying Mass, the other day. What an exit!

simon · 18-08-2004, 17:39

Jesus Travelled in on a donkey.......A lesson in humility is needed for the above...

mez · 18-08-2004, 18:44

isnt that what this thread is about, jesus was poor but he believed, the pic above gives you the insite as to the MANMADE idea of worship //

Acrylic-bob · 18-08-2004, 18:57

Goodness gracious,Simon. You're not suggesting that His late Holiness actually enjoyed any of that vulgar performance are you?
Tsk,Tsk. I am sure it was all carried out for the benefit of the faithful. You know, a reflection on earth of the majesty of heaven, that sort of thing.

I am reminded of the words of the second Borgia Pope, Alexander VI, something to the effect of: 'God has given us the Papacy, it would be a sin not to enjoy it'.