Sinister children's rhymes?

[Gordon Booth]

I remember being told that a lot of the old children's rhymes were actually based on tragedies or unpleasant things or were a safe way of having a go at the Government or the monarch of the day( without getting hung for treason!).

'Pop goes the Weasel' was something to do with drug taking(was 'popping the weasel' taking opium or something?). I haven't a clue where the 'half a pound of tuppenny rice, half a pound of treacle' comes into it!
'Tishoo,tishoo, all fall down' was something to do with the Black Death(the way people died).
Can anyone confirm if this is true and explain these and what others do you know?

[Margaret Pilkington]

I think that Pop goes the weasel referred to pawning stuff.......didn't they used to say they were taking Dad's best suit to the 'pop shop'.......the half a pound of tuppeny rice and the treacle were goods that would be bought as a result of getting cash on articles pawned.
Ring-a ring a roses certainly referred to the black death. Apparently the rash would come in a circle and was pink. Hence the reference to roses...the atishoo was the cold like symptoms...and of course 'all fall down' refers to the numbers who dies as a result of catching the plague.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I think that Pop goes the weasel referred to pawning stuff.......didn't they used to say they were taking Dad's best suit to the 'pop shop'.......the half a pound of tuppeny rice and the treacle were goods that would be bought as a result of getting cash on articles pawned.
Ring-a ring a roses certainly referred to the black death. Apparently the rash would come in a circle and was pink. Hence the reference to roses...the atishoo was the cold like symptoms...and of course 'all fall down' refers to the numbers who dies as a result of catching the plague.

That sounds right for 'Pop goes the Weasel', Margaret.
Where did I get the drugs thing from?
Hope kestrelx doesn't see my explanation, it might set him off again.

So how old is 'Ring a ring a roses'? It can't go as far back as the Black death, surely?

[MargaretR]

Just googled -
Nursery Rhymes lyrics, origins and history

[susie123]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I think that Pop goes the weasel referred to pawning stuff.......didn't they used to say they were taking Dad's best suit to the 'pop shop'.......the half a pound of tuppeny rice and the treacle were goods that would be bought as a result of getting cash on articles pawned.
Ring-a ring a roses certainly referred to the black death. Apparently the rash would come in a circle and was pink. Hence the reference to roses...the atishoo was the cold like symptoms...and of course 'all fall down' refers to the numbers who dies as a result of catching the plague.

These are the usual explanations for these two rhymes - pop goes the weasel refers to pawning the weasel and stoat or coat in rhyming slang. However there's no firm evidence for either of the explanations and they could have arisen after the songs were made up purely as nonsense rhymes.

Try this Wikipedia page, Gordon...

Nursery rhyme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[DaveinGermany]

A pocket full of posies, I believe refers to something like a potpouri that was carried to press under the nose to cover the smell.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

Just googled -
Nursery Rhymes lyrics, origins and history

Good thinking, MargaretR! So it's not 'tishoo, tishoo', its 'Ashes, ashes'! Even darker.

That's my next half hour taken up, thanks MargaretR.
Just seen susies post- thanks susie, will do.

[Benipete]

Ring a Ring o' Roses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another view.

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by Benipete

Ring a Ring o' Roses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another view.

Gets complicated. The more you look the less you know about how these rhymes originated- someone must have started them.