Where have all the graves gone?

[Mikejoed]

Retlaw, I am bewildered as to why you appear hell bent on proving I and everyone else, including newspaper reports wrong and only your good self reliably correct. You are clearly a stubborn owd coot and so stuck in yer ways you have this air of misguided authority that you are the only reliable source of information on Accrington History. When people become 'Unteachable' they've probably never learnt owt in the first place. One very good reason why I would never rely or put my trust in anything you have written.

Was the newspaper having a slack news day and made the entire episode up? I'm sure they didn't. And I wonder how much of newspaper information you have relied upon in your research over the years. Bet it weren't chip wrapper then!

Originally Posted by Retlaw

The two people that stained glass window refers to are.
Robert Hargreaves age 45 of Bank House buried 31-5-1854.
Louisa Hargreaves age 77 of 53 Porchester Terrace, London, buried 13-1-1894.
They are not the same Hargreaves's family buried in St James.
There were several prominent Hargreaves family's in Accrington back then.
Retlaw.

Somehow I doubt that Louisa had parents who were separated by 32 years as your post suggests! I know only too well that there were at least two main families of Hargreaves in the Accrington area, however, take a look at the attached copy of the Thomas Hargreaves pedigreee [copied from Josie R Green's excellent book on Oak Hill] and you can clearly see his son Robert married to Louise and their daughter Louisa. The stain glass windows in Christchurch for St Paul and Appollos were dedicated by Louisa in memory of her Parents Robert and Louise. And yes, if you look at the attached pedigree you can see they are very definitley part of the same Hargreaves dynasty. Robert Hargreaves was Benjamin Hargreaves younger brother and Louisa his niece. The same John Hargreaves who married Grace and are mentioned in the newspaper clipping that you disparage as mere chip wrapper, are outlined in black and you will notice the date of death for Grace is the same as on the Hargreaves Pedigree.

You really should get your facts right Retlaw. I wonder how many others you have bullied into submission to accepting your incorrect data. Not this one

Unfortunately due to the MS Word constraints on 100 Kbs on this forum I am unable to post the Hargreaves Pedigree right now as it 545 KBS. However, I will change it into a JPEG image and post it tomorrow.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

Retlaw, I am bewildered as to why you appear hell bent on proving I and everyone else, including newspaper reports wrong and only your good self reliably correct. You are clearly a stubborn owd coot and so stuck in yer ways you have this air of misguided authority that you are the only reliable source of information on Accrington History.

I will repeat again for your benefit.
There is nothing in the Christ Church burial records, to show any remains transferred from other places.
They are the facts.
I'm not trying to bully you into believing any thing, believe what you wish.
I know that you have only been interested in Accrington's History for a short time, and you have much to learn, but believing every thing you read in newspapers, as opposed to official documents, well carry on then.
I have several 1000 digital photographs of local newspapers, and the number of errors regarding solders details runs into the hundreds, I always check with more than one source, usually official records before I believe a newspaper report
Retlaw.

[Mikejoed]

Alas when it came to reports on soldiers there was always room for error at the time. Imagine how difficult it must have been getting the TRUE FACTS from the front line to the folks back home.

OK, hopefully I have reduced this Hargreaves pedigree to a JPEG image that will upload and you can check my facts on this Hargreaves family tree alongside the Newspaper clipping that describes the members of the family that were reinterred at Christchurch.

Hargreaves pedigree.jpg

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

Somehow I doubt that Louisa had parents who were separated by 32 years as your post suggests!

According to Retlaw...

Robert Hargreaves age 45 of Bank House buried 31-5-1854.
Louisa Hargreaves age 77 of 53 Porchester Terrace, London, buried 13-1-1894.

Which to my reckoning would mean Robert was born in 1809, and his wife Louisa in 1817, which sounds entirely feasible.

[garinda]

I thought working in the world of haute couture was a bitch fest!

I hadn't considered local history would give it a run for it's money.

Still, I suppose passion is a necessity, when making sure that the past is recorded...hopefully as accurately as possible.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by garinda

According to Retlaw...

Robert Hargreaves age 45 of Bank House buried 31-5-1854.
Louisa Hargreaves age 77 of 53 Porchester Terrace, London, buried 13-1-1894.

Which to my reckoning would mean Robert was born in 1809, and his wife Louisa in 1817, which sounds entirely feasible.

...and doesn't that make it their deaths were forty years apart, rather than 32?

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

Alas when it came to reports on soldiers there was always room for error at the time. Imagine how difficult it must have been getting the TRUE FACTS from the front line to the folks back home.

Getting the TRUE FACTS home has nothing to do with it. Proper reporting in chip wrappers is what counts.
As an example, look at the attached.
This man did not die, he spent 10 months in hospital, went back to France, was discharged in 1919.
George died in 1943 & is buried in Accy Cemetery.
He is also on Ossy War Memorial, even after they were told he didn't die.
Because they believed what was reported in the chip wrapper, & the list compiled in 1922 for Ossy Memorial.
Retlaw.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

OK, hopefully I have reduced this Hargreaves pedigree to a JPEG image that will upload and you can check my facts on this Hargreaves family tree alongside the Newspaper clipping that describes the members of the family that were reinterred at Christchurch.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but once again, none of the names in that news cutting are in the burial records at Christ Church.
You can wave that news cutting around as long as you like. The documentary facts disprove it.
I suggest you try Accrington Cemetery, because thats where all the re-interments from cemetery closuers have gone since Acc Cem opened.
As for St James, all the grave markes that weren't broken were laid as a paving around the church.

Retlaw.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by garinda

I thought working in the world of haute couture was a bitch fest!

I hadn't considered local history would give it a run for it's money.

Still, I suppose passion is a necessity, when making sure that the past is recorded...hopefully as accurately as possible.

Garry, you know me well enough now to know that, ACCURACY is the main criteria.
I work on the pricipal that if its 1/2 a thou out its scrap. I spend far more time checking the accuracy of my records, than I do recording them.
Retlaw.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Garry, you know me well enough now to know that, ACCURACY is the main criteria.

That I do know, and appreciate.

[keith higson]

Mikejoed - I agree with you "Retlaw" appears to be a legend in his own mind, he could/might be correct in historical facts but really he does go on a little bit which detract from his self confessed expertise in historical facts. - perhaps he was innoculated with a gramaphone needle.

Yes "Retlaw" mistakes/errors do happen but give it a break sometimes - in closing may I pose a question "Who Phyches the Physcheologist"

[steeljack]

no offense to the guy , but it seems to me he is sometimes a "bit" dogmatic in his responses, one wonders what will happen to all of his research records which he refuses to share, what will happen once he passes ...... hopefully his family will have enough room/interest somewhere to store the stuff.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by steeljack

no offense to the guy , but it seems to me he is sometimes a "bit" dogmatic in his responses, one wonders what will happen to all of his research records which he refuses to share, what will happen once he passes ...... hopefully his family will have enough room/interest somewhere to store the stuff.

I don't refuse to share, I will answer any question I'm asked with documentary evidence, I don't rely on a tatty newspaper article as proof that an event happened, as I have already shown, most of the stuff I've researched is in Accrington Library, available to the library staff, not those lazy beggars who just flit from one thing to another, photocopy it, and claim they found it.
By the way most of the stuff is printed on special paper, which makes it difficult to photocopy. All my sources from which my files have been created, when I've finished with them, are also locked away in Accy libraray.
Proper research takes a lot of time, and effort to do it properly, so why should I just give it away to every Tom, Dick & Harry, who are too dim, or bone idle to find out for themselves, then don't even say thank you, when they've got what they want, I've had a hell of a lot of that sort over the past 20 or so years.

Retlaw.

[Atarah]

Oh dear! On a grump again are we!! Dearest Retlaw, if you have deposited your findings in the library, why is it locked away????? Who is going to benefit? Why are you collecting information, but dont wanna share it? And why are you using special paper? Whether a person photocopies or handwrites, they still end up with the information? You have me stumped!
from your pal Atarah x

[garinda]

We all do sometimes form images of people on here, which are far from the truth.

I've met Retlaw a couple of times in 'real life'.

He was very friendly, helpful, and knowledgable...and more than happy to share his hard earned knowledge.

Just my impression.