Where have all the graves gone?

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Atarah

Oh dear! On a grump again are we!! Dearest Retlaw, if you have deposited your findings in the library, why is it locked away?????

To stop the numerous idiots who think they are experts on Accrington Heroes of WW1, from ripping it off.

Originally Posted by Atarah

Who is going to benefit? Why are you collecting information, but dont wanna share it?

Because I promised Bill Turner I would carry on searching for his men. Try accessing Bills collection in the Library, thats locked away, on Bills instructions to stop the rip off merchants.

Originally Posted by Atarah

And why are you using special paper? Whether a person photocopies or handwrites, they still end up with the information? You have me stumped!

If I can spend all the hours I do searching for & typing in the info, then they should have the courtesy of writing it out, instead of breaking the spines of books just to photocopy.

Retlaw.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by garinda

We all do sometimes form images of people on here, which are far from the truth.

I've met Retlaw a couple of times in 'real life'.

He was very friendly, helpful, and knowledgable...and more than happy to share his hard earned knowledge.

Just my impression.

Thats true, i met the geezer just the once, recently n found him very friendly, thing is i think, some just don't like straight talking, as i discovered many years ago.

[mobertol]

We all have our "Raison d'etre" - Retlaw's only exchange with me has been to offer info about a possible family member from the first world war -much appreciated, especially by my mum who's researching the family tree. The kind of research he's doing , as far as i can see, is without thanks and probably is only continued because of personal interest/passsion..keep up the good work!
Am not an expert on this matter, but in Italy families rent out burial ground for a certain length of time after which the corpses are dis-interred, cleaned (by specialised old people from the community) and then placed in the ossario (bone collection) in a consacrated place. otherwise family members can be found , several generations later and made to pay ground rent and up-keep of the graves of people they never knew......

[cashman]

Forgot to mention as was responding to rindys comments, the geezer was a great help to me last year when i was stuck fer some info on a relation of Paris's who died in W.W.2, so all those knocking, can get stuffed fer me.

[keith higson]

I hope I have'nt started a "slanging" match with my previous remarks, but whilst it appears that "Retlaw" is very thorough with his researching there are times when "The truth should not spoil a good story". I think the problem is that whilst he be correct readers get fed up when things are repated over and over and over again. Happy researching.

[dusty mears]

Originally Posted by keith higson

Mikejoed - I agree with you "Retlaw" appears to be a legend in his own mind, he could/might be correct in historical facts but really he does go on a little bit which detract from his self confessed expertise in historical facts. - perhaps he was innoculated with a gramaphone needle.

Yes "Retlaw" mistakes/errors do happen but give it a break sometimes - in closing may I pose a question "Who Phyches the Physcheologist"

You're having a personal comment with another user about someone who you probably dont know. I find offensive.
he's not a legend in his own mind, far from it. if he makes mistakes, he's big enough to admit it. he's spent years and years researching and quite rightly points out why should someone else come along & poach his and Bill's work.
And like me, he dont suffer fools and dont tolerate idiots
Yes his family are interested in his research and one thing's for sure, unless Father says so, it wont be made public and wont be going in Accy library !!! We're as protective of it as he is.

[wallop79]

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

Retlaw, I am bewildered as to why you appear hell bent on proving I and everyone else, including newspaper reports wrong and only your good self reliably correct. You are clearly a stubborn owd coot and so stuck in yer ways you have this air of misguided authority that you are the only reliable source of information on Accrington History. When people become 'Unteachable' they've probably never learnt owt in the first place. One very good reason why I would never rely or put my trust in anything you have written.

Was the newspaper having a slack news day and made the entire episode up? I'm sure they didn't. And I wonder how much of newspaper information you have relied upon in your research over the years. Bet it weren't chip wrapper then!

You really should get your facts right Retlaw. I wonder how many others you have bullied into submission to accepting your incorrect data. Not this one

I have typed up a lot of information for my father Retlaw, and I can assure you that I have seen a lot of mistakes that the Accy Observer made in their reports. Saying someone has been killed in action, when they were in fact in hospital, given dates of someone's death, when a letter has then been received by the family from the commanding officer telling them a different date of death, so yes newspapers do make mistakes. My father after the late Bill Turner is probably the most knowledgeable about Accrington History, he has spent years & years researching The Pals, along with other local interests, until you have put in the same amount of hours as he has then you can start slating him. As he has commented he uses more than once source to try and back up findings, he doesn't just read the chip wrapper like yourself, get yer head in a few more books etc before you start calling him. (Stubborn he might be, but when he's reyt he's reyt, and when he's wrong he'll acknowledge that)

[Retlaw]

Just been rereading that news paper article about reburials in Christ Church.
The heading is Accy Observer 1988
When was that article actually printed in the newspaper.
I've never seen an Accrington Observer dated 1874.
Now read the article carefully, note the dates when the event is supposed to have taken place.
In 1874 the coffins in the vault in St James's were opened.
Next bit
The necessary facilities were secured 35 years ago for reburial in Christ Church.

Now comes the best bit take 35 years from 1874 & you end up in 1839.
Christ Church wasn't opened until 1841. So how could permission be obtained for the use of something that didn't exist.
Surely some one being so called important as a Hargreaves, would have been in the Burial Records, if the events actually occured.

Since Accy Cem opened in the 1860's, all re-internments are suposed to go there.
Retlaw.

[Mikejoed]

You really mustn’t be so bombastic in your opinions, Retlaw. It’s one thing to be confident in your own accuracy but to claim everyone else is wrong and you are the only one that’s right is nowt less than sheer arrogance. I am aware of the many hours of research you have put in and even as one who is only just starting out, I can and do appreciate your endeavours. I do, however, think it is not just sheer selfishness but downright criminal that your findings should remain under lock and key. What on earth is the point of all your research if all you want to do with the findings is to lock it away where no future generations can benefit from all your hard work. I am aware that you have been a tremendous assistance to folks who have been researching their family tree. And respect for your reputation as a historian, particularly in the field of the Accrington Pals is of proven repute, as cantankerous as you can be. I just wish you would get down off your high horse for a minute and don’t just read what I am saying but rationalise the evidence with some common sense.

You insist in saying there is no relationship with the Hargreaves at Christchurch but the evidence is there in the stain glass windows. See attached photo. The dedication reads ‘In affectionate remembrance of my father & mother Robert & Louisa Hargreaves of Bank House Accrington – who are buried in this churchyard this window is dedicated by their only surviving daughter Louisa Grace Robertson Aikman’.

R S Crossley’s ‘Accrington Captains of Industry’ is as accurate an account you’ll find anywhere on Accrington’s history. He was respected by and worked closely with Richard Ainsworth, another highly esteemed Accrington historian. Excerpts from Crossley’s book were reproduced in The Observer in 1988. See attached entry about Thomas Hargreaves. Look closely and you will see in the third column a reference to Robert Hargreaves who married Louisa. Now look at the ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’ attachment and you can see under ‘TAB III’ a Robert Hargreaves of Bank House who married Louisa and their third child was ‘Louisa Grace’ who married ‘Colonel Francis Robertson Aikman’. How much more evidence do you need as unequivocal proof of the Hargreaves’ connection with Christchurch?

When I suggested that newspapers were renowned for making errors during the war I was in fact agreeing with you! Doh! However, getting accurate news from the front line back home was no easy task and was invariably subject to inaccuracies. The old adage of ‘Send reinforcements we’re going to advance’ becoming ‘Send three and four pence we’re going to a dance’ was a humorous example of how easy it was for errors to be made when passing on information to and from the front line. And who could blame them in the midst of a heated battle. So, please don’t be so unreasonable with the press when they did get it wrong. I agree it must have been devastating for a family to read of their son’s demise whilst he was still very much alive but crap happens in war.

When it comes to the newspaper article about the re-internments of members of the Hargreaves family in Christchurch, which you refuse to accept as fact, I am left with the quandary of trying to imagine why on earth would the press publish such an article that not only gave accurate names and dates of Hargreaves family members, as you can check against the attached ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’, what sense would such an account make. Are you seriously suggesting they invented the entire episode? I know you have been through the Christchurch records but to imagine they never made errors or omissions is to be more naïve than I can be, and you’ve been at this historical research business for more years than I could ever hope to match. You suggest that Christchurch wasn’t opened until 1841 meaning the contract to reserve grave sites would have to have been made 2 years earlier in 1839. I see no problem with that. When looking for funding of the church building, that is, before building commenced, such contracts would be commonplace by benefactors with the church. And whilst the church may not have opened its doors until 1841, work on building it may well have started two years earlier. It was a huge project and without the machinery available to today’s builders. I will look into this more thoroughly and report back to you, Retlaw. Unlike you, I believe that history belongs to everyone and our findings should be shared. Not everyone who has a deep interest in our local history has the time, perhaps not even the wisdom, to carry out the research that you have been privileged to successfully do.

I am currently preparing to interview a couple of Accrington’s senior citizens. One is 96 and the other is just 76. Both are absolute treasure chests of memories about Accrington and I am looking forward to the amazing privilege of recording their reminiscences on DVD so that future generations can learn about the life and times of Accrington folks in times gone by. You would be an ideal candidate for such a project, Retlaw, if it weren’t for the fact that you would rather selfishly keep your knowledge to yourself

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

You really mustn’t be so bombastic in your opinions, Retlaw. It’s one thing to be confident in your own accuracy but to claim everyone else is wrong and you are the only one that’s right is nowt less than sheer arrogance. I am aware of the many hours of research you have put in and even as one who is only just starting out, I can and do appreciate your endeavours. I do, however, think it is not just sheer selfishness but downright criminal that your findings should remain under lock and key.

I can do as I please with my research, if the criminality is in preventing so called upstart local historians from acquiring it, and using it as if it was there own work, then so be it, if its so important to you, then do as I did look for it.

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

What on earth is the point of all your research if all you want to do with the findings is to lock it away where no future generations can benefit from all your hard work. I am aware that you have been a tremendous assistance to folks who have been researching their family tree. And respect for your reputation as a historian, particularly in the field of the Accrington Pals is of proven repute, as cantankerous as you can be. I just wish you would get down off your high horse for a minute and don’t just read what I am saying but rationalise the evidence with some common sense.

I have reviewed it with common sense, if as you go on to say that the Hargreaves’ s were reburied in Christ Church, why did it take 35 years to implement. The facts are there is no record of such an event 1874, there were 69 burials in Christ Church that year, not one of them was a Hargreaves, out of all those, why should they not be recorded.

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

You insist in saying there is no relationship with the Hargreaves at Christchurch but the evidence is there in the stain glass windows. See attached photo. The dedication reads ‘In affectionate remembrance of my father & mother Robert & Louisa Hargreaves of Bank House Accrington – who are buried in this churchyard this window is dedicated by their only surviving daughter Louisa Grace Robertson Aikman’.

I have never disputed the fact that they had strong connections with Christ Church.

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

R S Crossley’s ‘Accrington Captains of Industry’ is as accurate an account you’ll find anywhere on Accrington’s history. He was respected by and worked closely with Richard Ainsworth, another highly esteemed Accrington historian.

That’s a laugh no one has ever found proof of his ramblings

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

Excerpts from Crossley’s book were reproduced in The Observer in 1988. See attached entry about Thomas Hargreaves. Look closely and you will see in the third column a reference to Robert Hargreaves who married Louisa. Now look at the ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’ attachment and you can see under ‘TAB III’ a Robert Hargreaves of Bank House who married Louisa and their third child was ‘Louisa Grace’ who married ‘Colonel Francis Robertson Aikman’. How much more evidence do you need as unequivocal proof of the Hargreaves’ connection with Christchurch?

I have never questioned the family tree of those Hargreaves’ s

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

When it comes to the newspaper article about the re-internments of members of the Hargreaves family in Christchurch, which you refuse to accept as fact, I am left with the quandary of trying to imagine why on earth would the press publish such an article that not only gave accurate names and dates of Hargreaves family members, as you can check against the attached ‘Hargreaves Pedigree’, what sense would such an account make. Are you seriously suggesting they invented the entire episode? I know you have been through the Christchurch records but to imagine they never made errors or omissions is to be more naïve than I can be, and you’ve been at this historical research business for more years than I could ever hope to match. You suggest that Christchurch wasn’t opened until 1841 meaning the contract to reserve grave sites would have to have been made 2 years earlier in 1839. I see no problem with that. When looking for funding of the church building, that is, before building commenced, such contracts would be commonplace by benefactors with the church. And whilst the church may not have opened its doors until 1841, work on building it may well have started two years earlier. It was a huge project and without the machinery available to today’s builders. I will look into this more thoroughly and report back to you, Retlaw. Unlike you, I believe that history belongs to everyone and our findings should be shared. Not everyone who has a deep interest in our local history has the time, perhaps not even the wisdom, to carry out the research that you have been privileged to successfully do.

I am not in any way privileged, I have a job to do, and I will do it no matter what, the only person I need to satisfy is me. Not you, or any one else, and if you don’t like it, tough.

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

I am currently preparing to interview a couple of Accrington’s senior citizens. One is 96 and the other is just 76. Both are absolute treasure chests of memories about Accrington and I am looking forward to the amazing privilege of recording their reminiscences on DVD so that future generations can learn about the life and times of Accrington folks in times gone by. You would be an ideal candidate for such a project, Retlaw, if it weren’t for the fact that you would rather selfishly keep your knowledge to yourself

We already had a woman doing that some years ago, all her tapes are now supposedly in the sound archives.
I have all my father’s reminiscences on tape, & in writing, he was born in 1904. Plus my own memories of what it was like to grow up in the 1930’s, knowing some of the survivors of WW1, growing up with their children, talking to them about their experiences, which they would never divulge to their kin. I just wish tape recorders had been available in those days.
Before you launch yourself into your projects, I would suggest you spend some time in the library, and check that it’s not already been done.

Retlaw

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

I am currently preparing to interview a couple of Accrington’s senior citizens. One is 96 and the other is just 76. Both are absolute treasure chests of memories about Accrington and I am looking forward to the amazing privilege of recording their reminiscences on DVD so that future generations can learn about the life and times of Accrington folks in times gone by. You would be an ideal candidate for such a project, Retlaw, if it weren’t for the fact that you would rather selfishly keep your knowledge to yourself

I once listed to a record of a bloke reminising about his time with the Accrington pals, and who he joined up with, none of the men he spoke about were who he said they were, or served when he said they did.
Documetary evidence proved him wrong.
Whats in my head is my business, my memories are my own, I wold need to live as long again to be able to record them, why I should let you root about in my head beats me, your the one thats selfish, thinking you can have every thing you want, as and when you think fit.
Retlaw.

[wallop79]

Who the hell do you think you are?? How dare you state:

Originally Posted by Mikejoed

I do, however, think it is not just sheer selfishness but downright criminal that your findings should remain under lock and key. What on earth is the point of all your research if all you want to do with the findings is to lock it away where no future generations can benefit from all your hard work.

The point (which I still dont think your understanding, even though this has already been pointed out in No:31) is my father is doing this research for himself and one other person Bill, whom he promised that he would carry on his hard work, its not being done for the likes of you & the rest of the plagiarists.

What on earth gives a jumped up prat like you the right to dictate & slander my father, have you ever met him? Many people on here, and also through requests from people leaving messages for him through Accy Library have been given information from my father when asked. All he was trying to do was help you by pointing out that your information couldn't be correct.

Now as you have already stated you are an amateur historian, so keep at it and when you have got half as much info as my father has then maybe you will share it with the world. It might sink in at that point that all the hard work that you have put in is for nothing if just handed over to idiots like yourself who cannot be bothered finding things out the hard way, and just want everything handed over to them (the easy way) Now I suggest you get back on your horse & ride out of town

[cashman]

Wallop, wallop, yeh will get accused of being in the clique, ........see accyweb meet thread from page 7.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by cashman

Wallop, wallop, yeh will get accused of being in the clique, ........see accyweb meet thread from page 7.

Higher Cashy.
Already seen that, enjoyed it.
What I'm waiting for is when he gets a shovel and starts digging down Black Abbey, for the legendary tunnel that never went to Whalley Abbey.
Just don't tell him that Atarah, a member of the local history society, myself, and several others, fully explored, and surveyed that area back in the 1980's.
Plans and pictures are in Accy Library.
Retlaw.

[wallop79]

Originally Posted by cashman

Wallop, wallop, yeh will get accused of being in the clique, ........see accyweb meet thread from page 7.

Two words which can be made into one Pil lock!! and he's a prize one after reading that, anyway am I not automatically added to the clique by proxy as Retlaw's offspring?