1 in 4 living off benefits - Page 10

churchfcrules · 04-09-2007, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

The flaw in your argument is that this has already been tried in the late 70s, 80s and 90s. under various schemes such as TOPS and YOPS, YTS, Community Action, ET, EA, and various options under New Deal.

It doesn't work as a sizable amount of these folk have another "income" be it from dealing, burglary or any other illegal activity.

Also with regards the "You're sick but you can do something so we'll force you to type these letters for nothing" arrangement, how long do you think anyone would put up with this before getting another doctors letter stopping them from this.

The only way to get the sick back to work is with a very big carrot (encouragement and empathy) and a small stick, or you will be hit with the headlines "Sick government hits the ill".

Yes there are malingerers and skivers, yes the benefits system needs a revamp but if you just use punitive measures you will hurt the genuine disenfranchised.

your points about the sick taken on board, maybe its our doctors that we need to turn our attention to then?

as for "alternative income" , do you suggest that it would turn them to crime? or that they already participate? if it is the latter then at least society would benefit from not having to pay them their benefit, i admit its only a small plus point but a plus point none the less.

WillowTheWhisp · 04-09-2007, 18:32

Bringing up a child is probably the hardest job anybody ever does! (Mind you, some people don't seem to take it seriously.)

churchfcrules · 04-09-2007, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Bringing up a child is probably the hardest job anybody ever does! (Mind you, some people don't seem to take it seriously.)

thats the point i was trying to make, and those that dont should lose the benefit, i would rather see that happen than it lose its means tested stance

Stanaccy · 04-09-2007, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

your points about the sick taken on board, maybe its our doctors that we need to turn our attention to then?

as for "alternative income" , do you suggest that it would turn them to crime? or that they already participate? if it is the latter then at least society would benefit from not having to pay them their benefit, i admit its only a small plus point but a plus point none the less.

But as has been said what about hte genuine claimants? If they are forced to work for their benefit for 40 hours a week WHEN DO THEY LOOK FOR WORK?

Also how soon after being unemployed do you bringthis in? 1 day? 2 weeks? a month? 6 months?

I can see it now 58 year old made redundant after 40 years in engineering on 30 June, made to count eggs 0n 31 July for his £56 a week.

garinda · 04-09-2007, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

just hold up on them there horses,
on what do you base that opinion, did i not direct you to point 3, which if you read accepts and addresses the view of working for benefits, thats the reason "my job" is in quotes, it then goes on to explain what is expected in return for that benefit, and if i fail, i am quite happy to lose the benefit.

now answer me this, why do i find myself having to explain everything twice to you, and referancing you to points i have already made?

To qualify your point, that you 'earn' child benefit by bringing up a well rounded child, who is to judge if someone is doing that properly or not?

Perhaps it could be a nice job for the terminally ill, or long term sick, as a way of earning their benefits.

churchfcrules · 04-09-2007, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

To qualify your point, that you 'earn' child benefit by bringing up a well rounded child, who is to judge if someone is doing that properly or not?

Perhaps it could be a nice job for the terminally ill, or long term sick, as a way of earning their benefits.

glad to see your coming around to my way of thinking lol

but i was thinking of school reports lack of asbos that sort of thing

in fact lets go one further

i propose we pay 1 parent minimum wage of 40 hours to stay at home with their children,

my wife used to comment when she told people she was a housewife, people reacted as though she did nothing, when a housewife is on call 24/7

think of the benefits

time to prepare a proper balanced diet
time to help with homework
being there when your children get home
amongst others

if it meant we produced a future genaration of more rounded individuals it would be worth it even if it meant a tax increase, plus it would free up jobs for those poor unemployed.

so there we go ill sit back and wait to get shot down for that 1

churchfcrules · 04-09-2007, 18:50

oh and i forgot to mention, i dont ever recall calling any terminally ill , malingerers

garinda · 04-09-2007, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

oh and i forgot to mention, i dont ever recall calling any terminally ill , malingerers

No one suggested you did, but those are the people who may be in receipt of benefits...if they're lucky.

churchfcrules · 04-09-2007, 19:00

going off tack a little there though dont you think, i thought we had established that some are actually tottally incapable of work, as stanaccy had suggested the system is flawed due to the doctors being to easily duped, and those that werent would just con another sick note of some kind, to get them out of their "work"

Stanaccy · 04-09-2007, 19:12

I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions asked further up.

Oh and I wasn't saying about genuine sick folk "duping" doctors but if you can con one sick note with a fake malady I'm sure you can get another.

churchfcrules · 04-09-2007, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions asked further up.

here goes, if memory serves me right (yes i have claimed unemployment benefit) if you have enough NI contributions, you can claim non means tested benefit, for a period of 6 months, during this time you are allowed to look for "you line of employment", after the six months if you are still unemployed you then go onto means tested, and you ave to broaden your scope.

i would go along with that, six months before you have to start your "forced labour".

as for time off to seek work, as long as you have some kind of proof that you are seeking work in your time off that would be more than acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

Oh and I wasn't saying about genuine sick folk "duping" doctors but if you can con one sick note with a fake malady I'm sure you can get another.

i assumed you meant "fake" illness and not genuine

Stanaccy · 04-09-2007, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

as for time off to seek work, as long as you have some kind of proof that you are seeking work in your time off that would be more than acceptable.

What proof would you have to seek work?

Err I'm reading the paper, here it is.

Err I'm going to look round the agencies?

Err I'm going job centre.

In a lot of cases you have to just go round to see someone. Also if you are in "full time forced labour" (if I recall correctly it used to be called slavery) where will you be able to get the assistance from the advisers who help you.

Also a lot of people who are unemployed for some time have other problems so before they can start work these have to be solved (I know I have worked with them).

BERNADETTE · 04-09-2007, 19:37

You do realise that housewifes were included in these figures as well don't you? As you have just said when your wife was a housewife people thought she was doing nothing. If you read further back in the thread you agreed with a comment that if someone who was recovering from a heart attack could do work on an allotment that meant they were capable to work. So what would you want people to do? Getting a bit of gentle exercise is beneficial to people recovering from any illness but it seems they are dammed if they take the excercise that could help them because people like you then assume they are fit to work. Life is never as black and white as you seem to see it. As I said last night there are people on here who would give their right arm to be fit to work, it is just unfortunate that we don't always get what we want in this life.

churchfcrules · 04-09-2007, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE

You do realise that housewifes were included in these figures as well don't you?

in a word no, if they are on benefits they are not a housewife are they, as far as i am aware there is no housewife benefit? or am i mistaken?

BERNADETTE · 04-09-2007, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

in a word no, if they are on benefits they are not a housewife are they, as far as i am aware there is no housewife benefit? or am i mistaken?

No that is what I am trying to tell you, the figures are flawed. If you go to the beginning of the thread the link is there.