1300 Bombardier (UKs last Railway stock producer) jobs being lost

[Lucysgirl]

We’ve always been uncompetitive with our pricing because we pay people to have a couple of tea breaks per day plus time for wash & brush ups at the end of each shift. Germany on the other hand only pay for the time spent working on the job and when they take a break their machine tools are taken over by other workers whereas British machine tools are idle. Their method of working means they are quicker completing contracts, the only way we equal their delivery times is if we take on extra workers and pay them to have tea breaks too.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Lucysgirl

We’ve always been uncompetitive with our pricing because we pay people to have a couple of tea breaks per day plus time for wash & brush ups at the end of each shift. Germany on the other hand only pay for the time spent working on the job and when they take a break their machine tools are taken over by other workers whereas British machine tools are idle. Their method of working means they are quicker completing contracts, the only way we equal their delivery times is if we take on extra workers and pay them to have tea breaks too.

Probably working practices left over from World War II, when they employed slave labour.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Lucysgirl

.....Germany on the other hand only pay for the time spent working on the job and when they take a break their machine tools are taken over by other workers whereas British machine tools are idle......

I think that is a bit of a generalisation, places I have worked in ran 24 hours a day and did not stop machines for breaks. You need more staff to cover breaks so have to pay more wages so you have to balance the two out

[DaveinGermany]

Wages aren't necessarily better in comparison, but German industry tends to be efficient, with many firms running 24 hours so therefore employing 3 shifts of workers. This leads to a greater number of people employed, more spending power leads to more sale, which leads to more production !

The German government in this respect have for many years past & present supported their industries (be that subsidies or tax/ legislation breaks) as they realize that a good economy is vital for the well being of the Country & its people. Therefore they're always looking forward, adapting & modernising Industry to remain competitive, unlike the UK who on many occasions found themselves constrained by rules, regulations & over empowered unions, also the fact that the unemployed process in Germany is far stricter & a less viable option which discourages people from making it an option.

Flexibility is also a great asset in German Industrial & production workers, starting work at 5 A.M. is seen by many as the norm (not me mind) & the working of long & arduous hours without any special remuneration, also the rate of people on sick leave is significantly pertinent, if someone is seen as malingering the rules on dismissal are quite clear & they can be replaced without the hooha you'd find kicked up by British unions, this then discourages would be sick lame & lazy & makes them think twice before trying to pull a flanker.

These are just a few of the reasons why the German economy/industry is as highly rated as it is as opposed to the poor showing by British firms.

[Boeing Guy]

On the BBC iplayer, there is a rather informative program called' made in Britian' presented by Evan Davis. It has two days left, far from not manufacturing it does go to explain why the third world make lots of our low priced goods while the majority of Manufacturing in Britian is of the high end technological stuff, I had no idea we still made as much as we do.
All that said, with the exception of the Wardrobes, bedroom furnitue and lounge suite, the vast majority of the things we own are made abroad.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

there is a rather informative program called' made in Britian' presented by Evan Davis.

Aye, I've been watching it & it really is quite interesting. I noticed earlier that your man C'mon, was going to make a reply, but it never materialized Probably as he couldn't justify shoving the blame & losses on the accursed Tories !

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

Wages aren't necessarily better in comparison, but German industry tends to be efficient, with many firms running 24 hours so therefore employing 3 shifts of workers. This leads to a greater number of people employed, more spending power leads to more sale, which leads to more production !

The German government in this respect have for many years past & present supported their industries (be that subsidies or tax/ legislation breaks) as they realize that a good economy is vital for the well being of the Country & its people. Therefore they're always looking forward, adapting & modernising Industry to remain competitive, unlike the UK who on many occasions found themselves constrained by rules, regulations & over empowered unions, also the fact that the unemployed process in Germany is far stricter & a less viable option which discourages people from making it an option.

Flexibility is also a great asset in German Industrial & production workers, starting work at 5 A.M. is seen by many as the norm (not me mind) & the working of long & arduous hours without any special remuneration, also the rate of people on sick leave is significantly pertinent, if someone is seen as malingering the rules on dismissal are quite clear & they can be replaced without the hooha you'd find kicked up by British unions, this then discourages would be sick lame & lazy & makes them think twice before trying to pull a flanker.

These are just a few of the reasons why the German economy/industry is as highly rated as it is as opposed to the poor showing by British firms.

A bit long winded Dave.. you could have just said British workers are lazy, skiving malingerers run by fat cat union leaders..the same view of your countrymen and women that Thatcher had..I'm sure she is very proud of you.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Mancie

A bit long winded Dave.. you could have just said British workers are lazy, skiving malingerers run by fat cat union leaders..the same view of your countrymen and women that Thatcher had..I'm sure she is very proud of you.

Your words not mine Mancie ! What I wrote was an explanation of the disparity between the British & German economies plus some of the underlying reasons for the different rates of success within the two economies when viewed at a comparative level.

Germany sits within the middle of Europe & is surrounded by Countries on all sides. That being the case they have to be constantly looking to see what the neighbours are doing so that they remain competitive or people will simply nip across to another Country to pick up their goods, it really is that simple.

Now UK being an Island & insular the people don't have the options of just nipping over the border so the British are left with a take it or leave it option, this has helped lead to the state of affairs that UK finds itself in today. without constant pressure to keep up & be aware of change they've trailed along behind other nations who are constantly on watch & continually tweaking & improving, (quite pertinent & relevant actually when you look at the Industrial decline of Lancashire & Yorkshire) again quite simple really.

So before you attempt to put words into my mouth to suit your purposes, think long & hard about your response & do try to remain within a framework of truth & facts please.

[cmonstanley]

dont think british workers are lazy the reason why british companies dont get contracts because previous goverments all the way abck to thatcher didnt give consistent support for manufacturing like succesive german goverments have,they have subsidies or invested in manufacturing companies like the motor trade while britain has declined .germany kept all its research centres open not like britain who slashed them in the early nineties.The stock market and private equity is not as important in Germany as it has been in the US and the UK and a large element of the corporate funding required in Germany is delivered through the banking system which means more money is invested in the company than go to the shareholder German employees enjoy a high rate of pay and a high level of job security which seems to be part of the national culture. In times of stress German companies will try to use work-sharing (kuzarbeit) rather than making significant job cuts which in turn helps maintain loyalty and all important skills within the workforce. Union influence is still significant within the private sector in Germany and in larger companies half of all seats on supervisory boards are reserved for employee representatives - and through this the workforce enjoys considerable veto power. However, the workforce appears to exercise their power responsibly and have been a key part of the success of the sector.so there goes your myth of the lazy british worker as most companies now use agency staff which does,nt exactly motivate the workers.It is no wonder that the current UK government (and to be fair the last government) has concluded that having a strong manufacturing sector is a good idea. The manufacturing framework concept gave the Government a great opportunity to clearly establish its support for the sector and give guidance on how it would provide the framework to help support the long term success of UK manufacturing. Therefore the delay and cancellation of the manufacturing framework was a disappointment.Developing the UK manufacturing sector in future years will not be easy and many commentators consider that the damage of the last 50 years has been too deep to reverse, particularly in the face of ever increasing competition. Unfortunately this may be true. But we must be able to build on the excellent companies and skills that we have in UK manufacturing to maintain a vibrant sector that has a key role in the UK economy and what might end up being a niche place in the world manufacturing economy. In my view this will mean that government understands that it does have an important role to play in establishing a framework for the success of manufacturing in the UK, sending manufacturing orders abroad doesnt help.

[Boeing Guy]

Cheer up Cmon, it's not all doom and gloom you know. The UK is the sixth largest manufacturing nation in the world, ahead of France. The USA is first followed by China, Japan, Germany and Italy then us. It is therefore vital that we keep ahead of the pack, our motorsport, aerospace And even automobiles are world class.. One of the biggest problems we have had over the years was a lack of investment and modernisation, of course the more you automate the more people you can make redundant. Sad but true. Looking at the British motor industry today we have giants bringing money into the UK, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Land Rover BMW, Volkswagen even the Chinese are here in strength with the reintroduction of the MG. We are world class in what we produce, but let us remember that for some goods we can never ever compete on price, clothing for example.

[cmonstanley]

this the best time to make quality clothing as the price of cotton is through the roof as fuel is just need more sheep

[DaveinGermany]

Good Grief C'mon !!!! Not copied & pasted ??? And quite coherent & formulated !!! Well booger me !!! Well done you !

But again you, the same as Mancie are attempting (& failing) to put words into my mouth ! Please read my comments again carefully, at no point did I or have I said that British employers are lazy. In fact, there is, as we are constantly told a highly skilled British workforce just waiting to be gainfully employed, but this falls down due to the fact that the workplace options have been seriously curtailed over the years.

As to the rates of pay, no, unlike UK Germany doesn't have a minimum wage as such, different trades & their associated unions have agreed set wages for particular forms of work, but there is still a class of cheap unskilled labour within the German marketplace. Many companies & small businesses haven't signed up to tariff agreements & will pay their labourers/cleaners/staff below any set level, but people will accept these hardships if only to put some money in their pockets & to remain within employment as the German "welfare system" is far more draconian & severely less lavish than that within the UK.

[cmonstanley]

another point is most british based companies are now owned by foriegn investment companies who have no interest in social cohesian

[Boeing Guy]

Does it really matter who owns Land Rover, if it is profitable? Keeping jobs in the UK? Seems like a lot of money is being spent there, keeping it in the British economy.
Maybe you would prefer it if all companies were nationalised.

[Boeing Guy]

Out of interest, do you buy everything British?