A Law Unto Themselves?

[shakermaker]

Jambutty, you're ability to make the most pointless threads ever known to man linger on for seven pages never ceases to amaze me.


******, I can't help but join in.


Jambutty, would you be kind enough to let us know what was actually written/drawn/scribbled/fingerpainted on the notice you saw at the checkout? You mention the general jist of what was said, but not word for word, this makes it hard to grasp for other members as they have all seen 'Challenge 21' posters which give out clear information.
You feel that the notices do not give the same information as the 'Challenge 21' posters do, thus erroneously making the claim that only customers over the age of 21 may buy alcohol. Well let's see what's on the notices.

[Benipete]

The signs say if you look under 21 they will ask for ID for the purchase of alcohol
They do not say that you have to be 21.The reason for this is to stop or lesson the risk of under age drinking. The same applies to tobacco you have to look 18 or you will be asked for I.D.--It's yet another government way of pretending that they care about the youth.It will never work.Though with my grey hair and zimmer frame I don't have a problem

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I would jump to the chance to argue against Jambutty providing my argument was correct, however..I think Jambutty is correct if rather a few aspects.

I am currently at the University of Hull so can't comment on the content of the actually sign at Asda.

However, I can say that if Asda are enforcing their own 'law' then,

1) It's going to be bad for business
2) It kinda removes the sovereignty of parliament somewhat, as 18 year olds SHOULD be able to buy alcohol, though as rightly said they're not legally obliged too, although again as jambutty said this could fall under age discrimination, and in my opinion rightly should.

I think a lot of people are having a go at him, regardless of the fact that MANY of you probably haven't seen the sign. Fair enough if it is a 'challenge 21' sign, then hes wrong, i can't comment myself, but if you aint seen it then you can't really say for definite can you?

We've got to have an image of these notices so we know what we're talking about. It's difficult to discuss something we haven't seen, but people have simply tried to point out the reasoning behind erring on the side of caution. ASDA would probably rather lose the business of a few 19-21 year olds than lose their licence to sell alcohol.

Originally Posted by Benipete

The signs say if you look under 21 they will ask for ID for the purchase of alcohol
They do not say that you have to be 21.The reason for this is to stop or lesson the risk of under age drinking. The same applies to tobacco you have to look 18 or you will be asked for I.D.--It's yet another government way of pretending that they care about the youth.It will never work.Though with my grey hair and zimmer frame I don't have a problem

That's what the 'challenge 21' signs say - of which I gave 2 examples, but Jambutty said those were irrelevant. Have you actually seen the ones in ASDA at Grimshaw Park? Is that what they say?

I don't know what I'll be buying when I go - but I certainly do want to go and have a look. As Neal quite rightly said though, it won't be booze.

[yerself]

Originally Posted by myself

An excerpt from a post by Jambutty in the 'Introduce Yourself' thread.


Even at 70 I still ask questions if I don’t know something.

Originally Posted by Mr. Butty

And you point is?

I can't speak for other members of Accyweb but I thought you knew everything.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by shakermaker

Jambutty, you're ability to make the most pointless threads ever known to man linger on for seven pages never ceases to amaze me.


******, I can't help but join in.


Jambutty, would you be kind enough to let us know what was actually written/drawn/scribbled/fingerpainted on the notice you saw at the checkout? You mention the general jist of what was said, but not word for word, this makes it hard to grasp for other members as they have all seen 'Challenge 21' posters which give out clear information.
You feel that the notices do not give the same information as the 'Challenge 21' posters do, thus erroneously making the claim that only customers over the age of 21 may buy alcohol. Well let's see what's on the notices.

If you think that highlighting the fact that a business drives a coach and horses through the laws of the land is pointless then I despair.

However I didn’t make them linger. I posted my comments on this issue and some people piled in determined to bring me down a peg or two and failed. I just responded in kind.

[shakermaker]

Originally Posted by jambutty

If you think that highlighting the fact that a business drives a coach and horses through the laws of the land is pointless then I despair.

It's substandard attention to detail at worst.
The Challenge 21 posters in store give necessary detail, the notice doesn't.
Yes, ASDA should sort it, but I wouldn't go as far as to say they're manipulating the law

[jambutty]

It turned out that I had reason to go into Blackburn this morning so on the way back I dropped into Asda at Grimshaw Park in Blackburn with my camera in my pocket, with a view to taking a picture of the blue notice.

At each checkout desk (not the self service ones) in front of and behind each checkout person is a Perspex screen. In front of the scanning machine there was large notice stating that alcohol would not be served to under 21’s and a small paper notice next to it was something about ID’s but both were on the side towards the checkout girl. Thus the customer at that checkout would not be able to see it. However the notice on the screen behind her the same blue notice was on the outside where customers in the next checkout point could see it.

That was last Friday. Today the blue notices have gone, but you can see the glue on the screens were they were. Instead, in front of the checkout person there is now a small notice explaining the booze buying rule. But it isn’t easily visible to the customer at that checkout. There is nothing on the other screen. At the end of each checkout bay there is a notice low down below the level of the table where you put your goods, that goes on about ID and under 21’s. It isn’t easily visible though. The colour contrast between the background and the text is poor. Whether it has been there all the time or not I do not know, but I never noticed it before.

I didn’t see any posters like those provided by WillowTheWhisp or any other type displayed anywhere. Even the under 18’s notice at the tobacco kiosk was gone.

I would suggest that the young man who was refused service last Friday, quite rightly complained to the manager. Whether he got his booze or not I don’t know but his complaint must have had some effect because the blue notices have been taken down and replaced with those small ones I mentioned earlier.

So I sent for the manager and asked him what happened to the blue notices.
“We took them down sir, because they did not convey the right message” he replied.
“Was that because my grandson complained last Friday, that in spite of producing ID to show that he was 19 he was unable to buy a bottle of scotch as a Xmas present for me?” I could see from his face that I had struck home but he mumbled something about company policy.
“Could I have one of those blue notices to settle a difference of opinion?”
“Sorry sir they have been destroyed.”

I shrugged my shoulders, said goodbye and left, as there was no point in pursuing the issue.

I should add that the young man was not my grandson, I just said so to establish my right to ask the question.

My point is, has been and always will be that it is the elected government that makes the laws of the land, not a business. I accept that Asda was trying to protect itself from accusations of selling booze to under age kids, but it has no right to pitch the age at 21.

If a notice stating something like “If you look to be UNDER 18 we will require ID to prove that you are not” was published not only would that conform with the law but would also cover Asda.

[WillowTheWhisp]

So it would appear that there is little point in me going over there now to have a look. What a shame. I was rather looking forward to it but didn't feel up to it today as I'm still full of a cold, been sneezing my head off all weekend.

However, if the notices were directed towards the staff members then it would imply that they were instructions to the staff members. In other words telling staff members to ask for ID from anyone who looked under 21. Now, if as you are saying they did so and someone proved they were over 18 and was still refused it sounds like possibly the staff had not been trained properly in the reason behind asking for ID from those who look under 21 - therefore a staff instruction to the staff which the staff have possibly misinterpreted has been removed in order to avoid further confusion. It does not mean that ASDA have suddenly changed their policy. Their policy has always been in line with the "Challenge 21" scheme - possibly just not adequately explained to the staff, or possibly misunderstood by some staff. It happens. Look how easy it is to jump to wild conclusions and misunderstand things.

Asda was in fact one of the founding members of the "Challenge 21" scheme and you can read all about it here.

However, if you still wish to complain about them being a law unto themselves perhaps you'd like to complain that they won't sell knives or tobacco to anyone under the age of 18.

[Less]

ASDA Press Centre Wednesday 19th July, 2006=First Supermarket To Extend 'Challenge 21' Policy To These Products


ASDA today (19 July 06) announced that it would be the first retailer in the UK to voluntarily raise the minimum age for customers buying knives and cigarettes* from 16 to 18.

The Challenge 21 scheme, that ASDA participates in, will also be extended.

Customers who are lucky enough not to look 21, will be asked to provide proof of age to show that they are 18 or over when buying cigarettes and knives at ASDA stores.

This widens the scheme, which currently includes the sale of alcohol, fireworks and 18 rated dvd’s and computer games.

ASDA’s decision, which comes into force from 1 September 2006, happens at a time when knife crime is on the increase and laws around smoking are being scrutinised.

The move falls during the Government’s consultation on proposals to crack down on teenage smoking (1).





At the same time The Violent Crime Reduction Bill (2), is going through the House of Lords, which includes measures to increase the age at which a person can be sold a knife from 16 to 18.

“Public opinion is changing in these areas and as a responsible retailer we felt we should do something,” said ASDA’s retail director, Andy Clarke,

“By raising the age limit to 18 for the sale of cigarettes and knives, not only are we helping discourage teenage smoking, but also helping our colleagues who sometimes find it hard to judge how old customers are,” added Andy.

ASDA is calling for other large retailers, newsagents and small stores to follow its lead as well as adopt the Challenge 21 policy.





The call to action follows Government research (3) which showed that nearly 70 per cent of 11 to 15 year old smokers say they buy their cigarettes from small retailers such as newsagents and corner shops.

Raising the age limit to 18 and adopting Challenge 21 also protects ASDA’s colleagues who are often faced with the responsibility of accurately identifying if the customer is 16, 17 or 18.

I've quoted it in full but in case anyone thinks I made it up, here's the link to that page:-

Asda Press Centre

[Mr Aleks]

Originally Posted by jambutty

It turned out that I had reason to go into Blackburn this morning so on the way back I dropped into Asda at Grimshaw Park in Blackburn with my camera in my pocket, with a view to taking a picture of the blue notice.

At each checkout desk (not the self service ones) in front of and behind each checkout person is a Perspex screen. In front of the scanning machine there was large notice stating that alcohol would not be served to under 21’s and a small paper notice next to it was something about ID’s but both were on the side towards the checkout girl. Thus the customer at that checkout would not be able to see it. However the notice on the screen behind her the same blue notice was on the outside where customers in the next checkout point could see it.

That was last Friday. Today the blue notices have gone, but you can see the glue on the screens were they were. Instead, in front of the checkout person there is now a small notice explaining the booze buying rule. But it isn’t easily visible to the customer at that checkout. There is nothing on the other screen. At the end of each checkout bay there is a notice low down below the level of the table where you put your goods, that goes on about ID and under 21’s. It isn’t easily visible though. The colour contrast between the background and the text is poor. Whether it has been there all the time or not I do not know, but I never noticed it before.

I didn’t see any posters like those provided by WillowTheWhisp or any other type displayed anywhere. Even the under 18’s notice at the tobacco kiosk was gone.

I would suggest that the young man who was refused service last Friday, quite rightly complained to the manager. Whether he got his booze or not I don’t know but his complaint must have had some effect because the blue notices have been taken down and replaced with those small ones I mentioned earlier.

So I sent for the manager and asked him what happened to the blue notices.
“We took them down sir, because they did not convey the right message” he replied.
“Was that because my grandson complained last Friday, that in spite of producing ID to show that he was 19 he was unable to buy a bottle of scotch as a Xmas present for me?” I could see from his face that I had struck home but he mumbled something about company policy.
“Could I have one of those blue notices to settle a difference of opinion?”
“Sorry sir they have been destroyed.”

I shrugged my shoulders, said goodbye and left, as there was no point in pursuing the issue.

I should add that the young man was not my grandson, I just said so to establish my right to ask the question.

My point is, has been and always will be that it is the elected government that makes the laws of the land, not a business. I accept that Asda was trying to protect itself from accusations of selling booze to under age kids, but it has no right to pitch the age at 21.

If a notice stating something like “If you look to be UNDER 18 we will require ID to prove that you are not” was published not only would that conform with the law but would also cover Asda.

You sad old twit have you not got anything better to do than just moan?

What a shame id have loved to see these signs you say were there but now are not. Strange that isnt it JB

And he would have been laughing at you as you walked away back to your PC to look at something to moan at

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

However, if you still wish to complain about them being a law unto themselves perhaps you'd like to complain that they won't sell knives or tobacco to anyone under the age of 18.

If the law is that the sale of knives and tobacco products is unlawful to anyone under the age of 18, then that is that. Why do you ask?

Oh! I get it! You are being facetious – again! Because you can’t bear the thought that my original post has been spot on.

Grow up!

[emamum]

why the big argument about posters??

[panther]

if ya think thats daft, my daughter couldnt buy a can of shandy!!
ya have to be 18...LOL

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Aleks

You sad old twit have you not got anything better to do than just moan?

It takes one to know one.

[emamum]

i was asked for id the day before my 24th birthday while trying to buy cigarettes. I had my (then) 5 year old my friends 2 babies and another friends 5 year old.. my lad obviously was calling me mummy and the babies were calling me memma, which sounds like mummy. I didnt have any id so was refused the cigarettes..... there is no way on earth i look 15!