a lesson to the british prison system! - Page 4

jedimaster · 10-01-2007, 20:25

here we have a picture of uk soldiers living conditions

now follow this link to uk prisoners living conditions and compare them for yourself

http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pr...risonoperates/

Billcat · 10-01-2007, 21:13

Do those those pictures show typical living conditions for the UK armed forces? Or is it an attempt to present the gross exception as the rule?

I very much doubt that this is what most of your armed forces have for living quarters - and they certain paint a very poor and, I suspect, misleading picture of how the UK values its troops. I'm sure that the UK typically does a much better job of providing decent quarter for its troops! I've been in the barracks that the USA offers our troops, and they are nowhere as bad as that.

I observe that the pictures of Her Majesty's prisons show quarters that a clean and serviceable, but pretty spartan. When are we going to see the "luxury" accomodations that are repeatedly mentioned in this thread?

WillowTheWhisp · 10-01-2007, 21:15

The UK can't even provide enough ammunition for soldiers in a war zone!

jedimaster · 10-01-2007, 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat

Do those those pictures show typical living conditions for the UK armed forces? Or is it an attempt to present the gross exception as the rule?

I very much doubt that this is what most of your armed forces have for living quarters - and they certain paint a very poor and, I suspect, misleading picture of how the UK values its troops. I'm sure that the UK typically does a much better job of providing decent quarter for its troops! I've been in the barracks that the USA offers our troops, and they are nowhere as bad as that.

I observe that the pictures of Her Majesty's prisons show quarters that a clean and serviceable, but pretty spartan. When are we going to see the "luxury" accomodations that are repeatedly mentioned in this thread?

are you actually for real?

i've seen peoples hoses in worse condition and more spartan than this
good honest working people who pay taxes to provide this free accomodation and as for the armed forces scenario yes it is quite typical as why would ther be a public inquiry at the moment?

see attached link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6230173.stm

Billcat · 10-01-2007, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

The UK can't even provide enough ammunition for soldiers in a war zone!

Interesting. Basic ammo (e.g., bullets, hand grenades, mortar rounds) is usually designed to be inexpensive. Is the problem financial or, as is often the case with soldiers in war zones, logistical? Willow, do you have link to some info about this? I know that our US soldiers have had troubles obtaining appropriate body and vehicle armor, but that is largely because the Defense Department had not budgeted for sufficient amounts of these items.

In any case, I'm not sure why the question of soldiers housing is even relevant here. Soldiers in war zones often have to make do with substandard housing - indeed, over history, most the housing for most soldier in war zones has been makeshift at best. Often, the is simply no housing, save for what the soldiers carry with them. When you think back to WWII, the soldiers on D-Day didn't worry much about housing, as they usually wanted to carry as much munitions as they could manage. Those pictures of those horrible accomodations are far better than those enjoyed by the men who fought in the Battle of the Bulge in 1944. No one likes thise fact, but it's a normal part of having soldiers in combat.

I don't believe that it is a valid comparison with what the accomodations in a prison should be. From the pictures of HM Prisons, basic and serviceable seems to be what is on offer. IMHO, that is entirely appropriate.

WillowTheWhisp · 10-01-2007, 21:47

I don't have a link about the ammo - it's been on several news items here but not the past few days.

Those living conditions are not front line war zone conditions. They are residential complexes for soldiers and their families.

jedimaster · 10-01-2007, 21:55

is this what you were looking for willow

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...23/nammo23.xml

WillowTheWhisp · 10-01-2007, 22:00

Thanks Jedi that will do to illustrate one instance.

I think this is particularly relevant

Quote:

The troops had to borrow ammunition off Canadian and American special forces as they battled to fight off Taliban attacks.

Billcat · 10-01-2007, 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

are you actually for real?

i've seen peoples hoses in worse condition and more spartan than this
good honest working people who pay taxes to provide this free accomodation and as for the armed forces scenario yes it is quite typical as why would ther be a public inquiry at the moment?

see attached link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6230173.stm

Why would you question if I am for real? Obviously, even if you do not care for my opinions, I am very much so. Are you just attempting to be insulting? I had thought better of you.

BTW, I read the article. I'm afraid that the survey of solidiers housing, while it does show some serious gaps in quality, does not show that the "typical" case is as presented in those pictures. Indeed, the article states that 95% of family housing is rated in the top two categories. Single housing has more issues but, even there, the majority of housing rated better than the extreme examples shown in the photographs.

In any case - Why does the problem with soldiers housing have any bearing on the basic and spartan accomodations in HM Prisons? Where is the "Luxury" that is repeatedly mentioned? I don't see any, and the pictures of the prision housing clearly do not support the claim. I'd be interested in what you would do to change the standard as presented in those pictures; would you be so kind as to provide some specifics as to the changes you believe necessary?

I'll agree that soldiers should have decent accomodations, but I fail to see how that would imply that things are amiss in UK prisons. Decent shelter is high on any list of basic human needs. In an ideal world, everyone would have decent, basic accomodations. Those, my friend, are not a luxury!

Question - if the prisons are so luxurious, why don't the folks here who find them so find a way to pass their holidays "inside," partaking of "luxury" accomodations for free? Could it be that they, like me, truthfully believe that the biggest luxury is one that is clearly missing in all prisons - the luxury to do pretty much as you please and come and go as you will?

BTW, I find it very interesting indeed that, when I presented factual data on recidivism, no one lifted a finger to contest or even comment on the data. Why, if the UK system is aparently workiing more effectively than ours in the USA, would anyone advocapte the dehumanizing tactics of that Arizona sheriff?

Oh yes, I am very much "for real."

jedimaster · 10-01-2007, 22:06

how about this one too

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../05/navy05.xml

WillowTheWhisp · 10-01-2007, 22:12

The reason I'm not in prison is a basically simple one - I would not do anything to break the law of the land I live in.

Billcat · 10-01-2007, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

is this what you were looking for willow

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...23/nammo23.xml

Interesting, but not quite as originally stated.

In any case, what bearing does this have to do with the situations in HM Prisons? What changes to HM Prisons would have ensured that defective ammo was not obtained? None, that I can see.

Looks to me like a failure to do quality control testing on the ammo ordered. In wartime situations, that can result in loss of life.

jedimaster · 10-01-2007, 22:24

the point is why the hell should people who put their lives on the line every day for the safety of this nation and yours! have to suffer in these conditions while people who obviously have a total disregard for any other person lap it up with free living free meals sky tv pool tables gyms computers etc..

heres another example:

Morton condemns jail luxuries

Tabloid News - 12/10/06 - Sid Billington

Morton tells some home truths
MegaStar says: ‘Er, you might want to take off that Hindley wig before you start your campaign. Just a thought.’

British actress Samantha Morton has had a wise pop at prisons who allow convicted sex offenders certain luxuries.

And when we say luxuries, we mean things like cosy cells and HD Ready flat screens. Probably.

According to the Express, In America star Morton, made this shocking discovering while visiting a prison to film a her new role as Moors child-killer Myra Hindley, for Channel 4 drama, Longford.

The drama explores the relationship between Hindley and penal reformer Lord Longford.

With £500,000 on offer is it Deal or No Deal?

Saucy virals for your viewing pleasure!
During the press screening, Morton, who was brought up in care homes, was quick to condemn the jammy conditions in which criminals live in: “We were allowed to film in a normal wing, then I walked through some grounds, where you had this beautiful lawn, to another wing.

“As I walked down I could see each room had portable TVs and Sky TV. They had these amazing kitchens. Other prisoners get treated abominably but this new wing was totally fantastic with all mod-cons.

“I said, ‘Who are they?’ and they said, ‘Oh, they’re the paedophiles’. I felt cold all over.”

A Prison Service spokeswoman was quick to say that Morton was mistaken, and that Wymott jail only allows inmates to rent portable TVs but does not allow them Sky.

Morton went on to describe her time spent in child care, where they had “no carpets, no nice beds, nothing. To see how these offenders live – I’m just asking, ‘Where is the balance?’”.

would you like more?

Billcat · 10-01-2007, 22:42

Surely someone can do better than that bit of journalistic tripe!

That article is so full of "probably"-type qualifiers and "she said, he said" contradictions as to be useless.

In any case, it mentions luxuries, but really does little to domore than make a lot of disputed claims.

I will admit that I do not have a lot of confidence in the generally low quality of reporting evidenced in that article. Reads as if it is designed to stir the emotions rather than to present anything remotely approching facts.

Billcat · 10-01-2007, 23:24

Interesting editorial, full of a lot of emotion and completely free from even a timy smattering of factual evidence. Save that sort of thing for the folks who want to debate purely from an appeal to emotion.

Frankly, I prefer to deal in factual evidecne, and the recidivism data posted earlier certainly do not support your case.

"A prisoner should have no rights?" Do I take it then that you do not believe that MS Prisons should not be governed by rule of law? That is the logical conclusion, based on your statement.

When you find yourself in hole. it is wisest to stop digging. BTW, where are your ethics? In the same place as all those facts you have not presented? I Googled some of your verbiage, and you lifted the lot from elsewhere, without a hint of attribution. Frankly, it was obvious that it was not yours as the writing style is totally dissimilar. Shame! At my university, that sort of plagiarism would be grounds for permanent separation.