a lesson to the british prison system!

jedimaster · 09-01-2007, 15:32

TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO, HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER.

THESE ARE SOME OF THE REASONS WHY:

Sheriff Joe Arpaio (in Arizona) who created the "tent city jail":

He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails, took away their weights, cut off all but "G" movies.

He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects.

Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again, only let in the Disney channel and the weather channel.

When asked why the weather channel he replied," So they will know how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs."

He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.

When the inmates complained, he told them, "This isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back."

He bought Newt Gingrich' lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the jails.

More on the Arizona Sheriff:

With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record), the Associated Press reports: About 2,000 inmates living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink boxer shorts.

On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the week before.

Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on their chests and dripped down to their pink socks.

"It feels like we are in a furnace," said James Zanzot, an inmate who has lived in the tents for 1 year. "It's inhumane."

Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates:"It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!"

Way to go, Sheriff! Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for their parole, only to go out and commit another crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to have for themselves.

Sheriff Joe was just re-elected Sheriff in Maricopa County, Arizona. « Previous Next »

Margaret Pilkington · 09-01-2007, 15:45

This was the subject of a post many moons ago.
I would pay this chaps airfare to come over here and revolutionise our prison system....but wait......have they got Human Rights legislation in the States?

grego · 09-01-2007, 16:28

Sounds like he has the right attitude, they dont deserve treating any better.

Billcat · 09-01-2007, 17:04

Arpaio? The fellow who has cost his county many millions in lost lawsuits, several for wrongful death? The fellow who has been publicly accused of torture? Not much to admire there!

No evidence that Arpaio's methods work to reduce crime, either. Even the sheriff himself admits that the recidivism rate in his prisons are about the same as the national average.

Folks can admire this grandstanding bully if they like, but I certainly do not.

Truth is, you just cannot train any sort of animal (including humans) effectively by using cruelty and negative reinforcement. The only thing prisoners learn in such situations is to use cruelty, violence, and negative tactics themselves.

jedimaster · 09-01-2007, 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat

Arpaio? The fellow who has cost his county many millions in lost lawsuits, several for wrongful death? The fellow who has been publicly accused of torture? Not much to admire there!

No evidence that Arpaio's methods work to reduce crime, either. Even the sheriff himself admits that the recidivism rate in his prisons are about the same as the national average.

Folks can admire this grandstanding bully if they like, but I certainly do not.

Truth is, you just cannot train any sort of animal (including humans) effectively by using cruelty and negative reinforcement. The only thing prisoners learn in such situations is to use cruelty, violence, and negative tactics themselves.

that's just the kind of namby pamby attitude that causes problems

make it known that prison is hard and not the holiday camp that is now and i'm sure there would be less crime on our streets

Margaret Pilkington · 09-01-2007, 19:44

I don't agree with torture or cruelty, but neither do I think that society is served by prisoners having a lifestyle that their victims cannot even dream of.
Prison should be a place where life is hard.....early mornings.......physical exertion.....suitable food requirements but nothing fancy....... and the inmates should be aware that they are only in this deprived situation because of their own actions. I am sick of hearing the pleas of solicitors who bleat on that their client had a deprived childhood...is a drug abuser etc. etc. THEY CHOSE to do wrong......so if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

Billcat · 09-01-2007, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

that's just the kind of namby pamby attitude that causes problems

make it known that prison is hard and not the holiday camp that is now and i'm sure there would be less crime on our streets

Less crime? How then do you explain the fact that the repeat rate for folks leaving this sheriff's facility is no better than average - by the sheriff's own admission? If his cruelty does not produce the intended results, then it is just more useless inhumanity! Meanwhile, he has cost his taxpayers many millions of dollars in lawsuits. BTW, If you think prison is a holiday camp, then you obviously have never visited one.

Also, it should be well noted that most of the folks in that sherriff's jail are not yet convicted and, while they are in lock-up prior to trial, entitled to the presumption of innocence in the meanwhile. Presumption of innocence is one of the good things we Americans gained from the Brits. Much better than the French system. Or perhaps you would favor going back to thumbscrews and the rack as evidence-gathering techniques?

In any case, suggest you do a bit of research on this sheriff, as I did. Let's not forget that Herr Hitler was also very tough on some folks and very popular as well - until folks came to their senses.

WillowTheWhisp · 09-01-2007, 20:06

Torture? That doesn't sound much like torture. Did he ever use thumbscrews or the rack? Did he brand anyone with hot irons? Did he poke anyone's eyes out? Or lash the soles of their feet with a whip?

Depriving them of a few home comforts that many people on the outside can't afford gets my approval. Why should prisoners be better off in prison than their victims are on the outside?

OK maybe living in tents in all that heat s uncomfortable but he does point out that the soldiers in Iraq are ;iving in similar conditions and they have committed no crimes.

As for the chain gangs well are they real chains and are they breaking rocks like in the old days or are they just being kept under control and made to earn their keep? Some people have hard gruelling jobs which they have to do in order to pay their way in life wiithout resorting to crime.

I'm with Margaret that we are qute often too soft with criminals and they end up better off than the victims. Crime doesn't pay? Free board and lodgings, no bills, a balanced diet and chances of further education to help them have a better start when they get out. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

Post Scrip following Billcat's post - I do not think prisoners on remand should be treated the same way as those who have been convicted. Remand prisoners may well be innocent so they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Margaret Pilkington · 09-01-2007, 20:11

Herr Hitler didn't vent his spleen on criminals.....as far as I am aware...though if you know of some information to the contrary, I'm sure you will let us know.

Margaret Pilkington · 09-01-2007, 20:21

The reasons that prisons don't work is because the crims can't wait to get back inside to their cushy lifestyle....with full leisure facilities, TV, and as Willow observed further education opportunities that folk on the outside(decent, law abiding folk, I might add) have to pay for. I don't know what prisons are like over in the USA......but here the criminals have better health care, better nutrition, better leisure faclilties than many of our pensioners. Murderers are accommodated in open prisons...they can walk out and be on the loose for 2 months before we get to hear about it.
We have a Director of Prisons who freely admits that he hasn't a clue how many dangerous criminals are on the loose. Sentences are soft and are almost NEVER served in full....LIFE should mean life......18 months should be 18 months...not the six months that is currently the norm.Prison SHOULD be about deprivation of liberty and social contact......it should be about reparation.....it should be strict enough to deter the wrong doer from offending ever again.

jedimaster · 09-01-2007, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat

Less crime? How then do you explain the fact that the repeat rate for folks leaving this sheriff's facility is no better than average - by the sheriff's own admission? If his cruelty does not produce the intended results, then it is just more useless inhumanity! Meanwhile, he has cost his taxpayers many millions of dollars in lawsuits. BTW, If you think prison is a holiday camp, then you obviously have never visited one.

Also, it should be well noted that most of the folks in that sherriff's jail are not yet convicted and, while they are in lock-up prior to trial, entitled to the presumption of innocence in the meanwhile. Presumption of innocence is one of the good things we Americans gained from the Brits. Much better than the French system. Or perhaps you would favor going back to thumbscrews and the rack as evidence-gathering techniques?

In any case, suggest you do a bit of research on this sheriff, as I did. Let's not forget that Herr Hitler was also very tough on some folks and very popular as well - until folks came to their senses.

probably cos too many people complaining about his methods instead of getting behind him and following his example and the cons know it
people who cause harm to others in whatever way do not deserve to be classed as human beings and as such waiver their "human"rights
they are there to be punishe3d not for a bleedin holiday

panther · 09-01-2007, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The reasons that prisons don't work is because the crims can't wait to get back inside to their cushy lifestyle....with full leisure facilities, TV,
Prison SHOULD be about deprivation of liberty and social contact......it should be about reparation.....it should be strict enough to deter the wrong doer from offending ever again.

exactly.....and its all free!!

Billcat · 09-01-2007, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Why should prisoners be better off in prison than their victims are on the outside?

I'm with Margaret that we are qute often too soft with criminals and they end up better off than the victims. Crime doesn't pay? Free board and lodgings, no bills, a balanced diet and chances of further education to help them have a better start when they get out. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

Post Scrip following Billcat's post - I do not think prisoners on remand should be treated the same way as those who have been convicted. Remand prisoners may well be innocent so they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Willow, this sheriff runs a jail, not a prison. Most of the folks in his lock-up are not yet convicted. Don't know how it works in the UK, but the only convicts you will find in most jails are parole violators and newly convicted criminals - both awaiting transfer to a prison. Sometimes, folks convicted of relatively minor offenses with very short terms will also be found in county jails.

Also, from what I have read about him, it sure does not sound like this sheriff is making any attempt at a "balanced diet." Indeed, he seems to take great pride in offering such a poor diet that the only good thing that can be said about it is that you may not starve. Also, please do not characterize it as free board, as it appears that this sheriff also charges for the meals.

Billcat · 09-01-2007, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedimaster

probably cos too many people complaining about his methods instead of getting behind him and following his example and the cons know it
people who cause harm to others in whatever way do not deserve to be classed as human beings and as such waiver their "human"rights
they are there to be punishe3d not for a bleedin holiday

In other words, you favor punishing folks who ahave not yet been convicted of any crime? Am I understanding you correctly?

Billcat · 09-01-2007, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Prison SHOULD be about deprivation of liberty and social contact......it should be about reparation.....it should be strict enough to deter the wrong doer from offending ever again.

Margaret, please read a bit more carefully - this sheriff does not run a prison. He runs a jail, where most of the inmates have not yet been convicted of anything. Under our law, they are presumed innocent. They are either being held because there is a risk of flight from prosecution, or because they cannot afford the bail bond. His behavior would be shameful in a prison; it is clearly a moral and social injustice to treat folks who have not yet been found guilty in such a manner.