alternative vote

[Margaret Pilkington]

I think AV is far to complicated, and most people want only the person they choose as their elected member...they don't want to choose 2nd and 3rd choices.
There is already so much apathy about voting, this will not help that situation one little bit........and some of the older voters will be alienated by the changes.

With AV we run the risk of having water weak administration for ever.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Pendle Red

It's a vote that has been a long time coming and if it is a no then it will be a long time coming back round again.

I think AV could work even if it makes the politicians sit up particulary in marginals and think well I have got to work on this knowing that they will have to perhaps look more than there normal party marginalised policies to work more for the broader electorate.

On the contrary, it is the electorate who need to be better informed about what their councillors actually do for them. From talking to the public on the doorsteps and across the borough it becomes apparent that a vast number vote for the badge and not the person, regardless of how good a job they are doing.

Many people seem to be under the impression that a vote for Labour in the Rishton election is a vote to put Ed Milliband in 10 Downing Street on May 6th or that a Tory vote will keep David Cameron in power and it is an uphill struggle to convince people of the difference between local and national elections.

I have lost count of the people I have helped with a problem but who will still not vote Labour in the locals under any circumstances on principle. When I ask them if they know who their Tory councillor is the stock response is almost always 'I don't know but it doesn't matter'.

The reverse will be true across the board but the AV system will not get rid of that.

[gynn]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

Many people seem to be under the impression that a vote for Labour in the Rishton election is a vote to put Ed Milliband in 10 Downing Street on May 6th or that a Tory vote will keep David Cameron in power and it is an uphill struggle to convince people of the difference between local and national elections.

On the other hand, it is the only chance the electorate have (until the next General Election in 2015) to express their verdict on the performance of national politicians. If you stand on a Labour or Conservative ticket, the voters won't differentiate between national and local politics (and why should they?).

And the ruling party locally will, in my experience, rarely rock the boat when its own party is in power nationally.

I know it won't make much difference in Hyndburn, but I think the biggest legacy of the 2011 local elections will be the disappearance of a lot of hard working local Liberal Democrat councillors who will be judged on the performance of their national leaders.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by gynn

On the other hand, it is the only chance the electorate have (until the next General Election in 2015) to express their verdict on the performance of national politicians. If you stand on a Labour or Conservative ticket, the voters won't differentiate between national and local politics (and why should they?).

And the ruling party locally will, in my experience, rarely rock the boat when its own party is in power nationally.

I know it won't make much difference in Hyndburn, but I think the biggest legacy of the 2011 local elections will be the disappearance of a lot of hard working local Liberal Democrat councillors who will be judged on the performance of their national leaders.

I agree with what you're saying but a Labour or Conservative badge is an expression of opinion on national issues. For a useless local party to coast into power simply on the back of the party in Westminster is no good for anyone. We have several apathetic councillors who wave to the populace every time elections draw near and get voted in because of the badge.

Whilst in principle the AV system tries to do away with this it will never work because of those people who blindly vote for party colours and all we will end up with is lazy councillors who have found that their luck is running out suddenly garnering more votes by default.

The public doesn't trust politicians, I've learned that much from talking to residents on the doorstep who see us as being in it for what we can get. Councillors have to work harder anyway since the expenses scandal in order to justify their positions and quite rightly so.

Change the way your councillors behave, not the way they rack up their votes.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I agree with what you're saying but a Labour or Conservative badge is an expression of opinion on national issues. For a useless local party to coast into power simply on the back of the party in Westminster is no good for anyone. We have several apathetic councillors who wave to the populace every time elections draw near and get voted in because of the badge.

Whilst in principle the AV system tries to do away with this it will never work because of those people who blindly vote for party colours and all we will end up with is lazy councillors who have found that their luck is running out suddenly garnering more votes by default.

The public doesn't trust politicians, I've learned that much from talking to residents on the doorstep who see us as being in it for what we can get. Councillors have to work harder anyway since the expenses scandal in order to justify their positions and quite rightly so.

Change the way your councillors behave, not the way they rack up their votes.

Nothing to do with local elections, this system would only be used at General elections, at local elections you very rarely get any more than a two horse race so PV voting would be useless, Oh and by the way there are bloody useless Labour councillors too

[Neil]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Oh and by the way there are bloody useless Labour councillors too

I have met at least one

[Stumped]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

The very attitude I'm keen to get rid of on both sides of the fence.

Local elections are completely different from national politics and make absolutely no change to those in power in Westminster. Make your councillors accountable, phone them, hassle them when something isn't right in your town. We're not here just to beg for your votes every four years and it would pay for a few more councillors to realise this.

Please vote in your local elections, it's the only voice you have.

I hear what you're saying, Ken - and I recognise that local and national politics are fundamentaly different in their essence. However, the promises made on the doorstep during election campaigns should be taken with a pinch of salt as they never, ever seem to bear fruition.

[JCB]

Originally Posted by gynn

On the other hand, it is the only chance the electorate have (until the next General Election in 2015) to express their verdict on the performance of national politicians. If you stand on a Labour or Conservative ticket, the voters won't differentiate between national and local politics (and why should they?).

Many voters in local elections don't vote on local issues . They use it as an opportunity to put two fingers up to those in Westminster . If nationally Labour do well in the May elections , the political pundits will say that it was a bad night for the Government .

Whether it is right or wrong , that's how it comes across . It always has been that way as long as I can remember .

One sure way of remedying it is to take party politics out of local government .

[g jones]

Local Elections held on one day, teh first thursday in May, simply turn into a referendum on the national government. However spreading them out wouldn't change anything in my view.

Voting on the government is an easy option and it not only represents issues that are of greatest importance to themajority, national issues. They are the issues people are familiar with and understand.

Local Councillors have to work very hard to compete with the bigger, national issues which pervade into people’s lives through tv news, newspapers and national policy such as the NHS.

Some local councillors manage to match national news with local news because of their efforts and their results run slightly at odds with national trends proving that local can be important.

People vote for a party locally because it represents a guaranteed offer, essentially left or right. Many voters never see candidates and if they do it is only for a moment on the doorstep and badge gurantee's some form of a contract between voter and candidate. Party's also offer a commitment to work together and a mandate. The major Party's have tended to offer a clear winner too.

All these factors I think form the basis of local election results which is shame. Councillor Britcliffe has wasted tens of £millions and under normal circumstances would never have been allowed anywhere near the leaders office.

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by g jones

All these factors I think form the basis of local election results which is shame. Councillor Britcliffe has wasted tens of £millions and under normal circumstances would never have been allowed anywhere near the leaders office.

As opposed to the Billions of £s and many thousands of lives , (many of them British) wasted on an illegal war (Iraq) co-started/sponsored by the ex leader of the Party of which you are so proud to support .

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

On the contrary, it is the electorate who need to be better informed about what their councillors actually do for them. From talking to the public on the doorsteps and across the borough it becomes apparent that a vast number vote for the badge and not the person, regardless of how good a job they are doing.

Many people seem to be under the impression that a vote for Labour in the Rishton election is a vote to put Ed Milliband in 10 Downing Street on May 6th or that a Tory vote will keep David Cameron in power and it is an uphill struggle to convince people of the difference between local and national elections.

.

Not to sure how I feel about this post , think if I was a Rishton voter I could really take offense that a candidate/Party looking for my vote would take such an elitist view of his electorate ....terms like "vast number"/"Many people" , (which suggests more than 50% + of the population) .... "need to be better informed" , do you really think the folks of Rishton are ignorant donkeys to be used for political gamesmanship .
Some people on either side of the political spectrum could think "better informed" could mean introduction of re-education camps (a Stalin/Harriet Harmon type of thing ... "we know whats best for you" ), or
maybe some sort of 'educational' means test could be introduced to wean out the non political savvy , ie was Lord Palmerston a Whig or a Tory ?
I think Mr Moss if you and your party want the votes of the folks of Rishton you need to show a bit more respect for the whole and not just the few, and stop using terms like "better informed" and "uphill struggle"

[Eric]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Not to sure how I feel about this post , think if I was a Rishton voter I could really take offense that a candidate/Party looking for my vote would take such an elitist view of his electorate ....terms like "vast number"/"Many people" , (which suggests more than 50% + of the population) .... "need to be better informed" , do you really think the folks of Rishton are ignorant donkeys to be used for political gamesmanship .
Some people on either side of the political spectrum could think "better informed" could mean introduction of re-education camps (a Stalin/Harriet Harmon type of thing ... "we know whats best for you" ), or
maybe some sort of 'educational' means test could be introduced to wean out the non political savvy , ie was Lord Palmerston a Whig or a Tory ?
I think Mr Moss if you and your party want the votes of the folks of Rishton you need to show a bit more respect for the whole and not just the few, and stop using terms like "better informed" and "uphill struggle"

I don't know about this .... I get your point, and that of Ken too. It's one of the tricky questions about democracy. I think that the politically savvy Rishton voter would tend to agree with Ken, though. And the question of the politically ignorant voter, or the ones that really don't give a flying you know what, is a thorny one. But it's one that I think should be left alone. The only qualification for voting should be citizenship (and age of course). I don't believe that is something to be tampered with. Maybe something that could be done within the education system.

[Margaret Pilkington]

steeljack, with the greatest respect, I think you are too far(geographically) removed from the situation to know what you are talking about.

Ken is not being disrespectful about the locals of Rishton. In respect of local government, and elections of local government officials, I think that many folk have such an apathetic view of politics, that they 'turn off' intellectually when such things are mentioned......and as such will be able to tell you very little about local politics.....because they see it as boring, uninteresting.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Not to sure how I feel about this post , think if I was a Rishton voter I could really take offense that a candidate/Party looking for my vote would take such an elitist view of his electorate ....terms like "vast number"/"Many people" , (which suggests more than 50% + of the population) .... "need to be better informed" , do you really think the folks of Rishton are ignorant donkeys to be used for political gamesmanship .
Some people on either side of the political spectrum could think "better informed" could mean introduction of re-education camps (a Stalin/Harriet Harmon type of thing ... "we know whats best for you" ), or
maybe some sort of 'educational' means test could be introduced to wean out the non political savvy , ie was Lord Palmerston a Whig or a Tory ?
I think Mr Moss if you and your party want the votes of the folks of Rishton you need to show a bit more respect for the whole and not just the few, and stop using terms like "better informed" and "uphill struggle"

But it's the truth and I see it as part of my job to make sure the electorate are better informed about who we are and what we do. Since I got elected I have written several letters to every household, taken over running of the noticeboards and made as much of an effort as I can online to publicise what the Rishton councillors actually do.

I want everyone in Rishton to at least know who their councillors are because some of them still don't. When I am out in the village I always have some cards and a notepad with me so that if someone does present me with a problem it can be properly documented there and then. Whilst canvassing I have been able to report several things because some residents still don't know that a quick phonecall to any one of us could have dealt with it.

The fault lies with the councillors in most cases and in three years time when I go asking for people to vote for me again I would hope that most people at least recognise my name.

There really is no excuse for a politician who claims to represent the community and yet is never seen.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Stumped

I hear what you're saying, Ken - and I recognise that local and national politics are fundamentaly different in their essence. However, the promises made on the doorstep during election campaigns should be taken with a pinch of salt as they never, ever seem to bear fruition.

Well as I say to everyone on the door who asks what Clare Cleary will do for Rishton (and asked the same thing of me last year), no one who comes a-knocking can make you any cast iron promises about what they will definitely get done in your town and those who do aren't worth your vote. All we can offer you on the doorstep before an election is what we stand for, the problems that we are aware of and how we would go about dealing with those problems to help the community. You could vote for a candidate who promises something and find in May that they do not control the council so how can they honour that promise?

No one can guarantee you anything, beware of those who do.