An Inconvenient Truth

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

I don't presume to speak for Steeljack....however, I think what he may be trying to point out to you is that many of the loudest proponents of man-made global warming today are confirmed anti-capitalists. The environmental movement is a tailor-made venue for them.

Barb , Yep , you got it in one ,
I forgot to include in my list the paint throwing idiots from PETA , the folks who have made it nearly impossible for a child to see a traditional Circus .

[WillowTheWhisp]

Are you a supporter of animals circus acts steeljack?

[cashman]

I remain a skeptic on the subject of man-made global warming because I see a fair amount of fraud and misinformation being bandied about.--- barb i couldn,t agree more.

[Terry]

Here are a few facts to mull over.
1. It has been reported by scientists that there is upwards of 200 billion tons of CO2 produced annually. 4% of which is by burning fossil fuels. The CO2 respired out annually by human beings and their livestock is far in excess of that ammount. The poulation has increased by over 3 billion since 1850. The question is where has it all this CO2 gone to?
2. Scientists will also tell you that the CO2 content of our atmosphere is something like 380 ppm. I can't envisage what that ammount is so I convert it to a fraction of a % which means 0.038%. Not much is it. It has been absorbed by the green plant life of this planet(99.99) to the point that there is almost nothing left. Since 1850 the increase annually has been less that 1ppm
3. We have been having climate change for thousands of years.
4. We have aways had a greenhouse effect. Its main component(98.0%) is water vapour. Not CO2
5. Don't worry too much about big icebergs or any sea ice. The water they displace is exactly the same as is contained in the berg. Water swells by 10% whe it's frozen. When it melts there is no difference in water level. According to the maritime institute of Adelaide, there has been no measurable rise in the sea levels for the last 80 years.
6 Whether or not the climate is changing because of human activity has not been proven other than by junk scientists. to keep the research funds going.
7. There are far too many other factors involved on this big dynamic planet of ours that may be responsible for present climes
8. You all learned at school about our atmosphere. 21% oxygen. 78% nitrogen. 1% other gasses. including CO2. They all have one thing in common. They are all invisible.
9. What could affect our weather is the airborne particulate matter that accompanies burning coal and oil. Also volanic erruptions, and massive bush fires. If we can learn to burn these fuels without the muck, you'd have nothing to complain about then. Would you?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Point #2 is interesting - apart from the fact that there is an increase, which no doubt some will argue is so small as to be insignificant - this bit about being absorbed by the green plant life is good considering we seem hell bent on chopping down forrests and concreting over green areas. (It's also worth noting that percentage increases are cumulative.)

[Terry]

Indeed true Willow. In 1850 the % of CO2 was 250ppm(so the scientists say)= 0.025% and has increased by 130ppm to 380ppm or 0.038% over the last 156 years. That's a cumalitive increase of just less than 0.001 per year. Green plant life grows better and bigger the more CO2 there is. But we don't notice it at the moment because the increase is too small to observe. Its true we are stupidly demolishing our few rainforests but whats left of it still uses 99.99% co2 in the atmosphere. However I am not actually debating anything here Willow Just having a bit of a contribution to this subject and adding a few things that add to the overall big picture(and probably causing more debate than it should )

[WillowTheWhisp]

On the contrary Terry - it's a fascinating subject and the more points raised the more it gives people to think about.

I don't believe any of us own anything on this planet. I believe we are just caretakers and we should try to pass it on to the next generation in as good or better condition than we inherited it from our forbears.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by Terry

6 Whether or not the climate is changing because of human activity has not been proven other than by junk scientists. to keep the research funds going.

Utter nonsense, terry! There is an extremely broad consensus among reputable scientists. You are either not paying attention, or deliberately dissembling.

Fact - there have been zero articles on the anti-global-warming side that have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, while there have been hundreds that indicate global warming is real and with mankind as a substantial cause.

Most junk science never gets submitted for peer review.

Deos the media over-hype the issue? Sure, that's how they get an incurious public to listen. It should be pointed out that over-hype does not necessarily indicate that we should not pay attention and go on our merry way.

[jambutty]

The planet has always had warming and cooling cycles.

Exactly right bullseyebarb.

It's utter hubris to think that we mere mortals can do anything to prevent that.

However no one is suggesting that we try to prevent the natural course of events. What we are suggesting is that earthly activities can and is exacerbating the situation by accelerating the warming part.

The green house gasses are not just CO2 but methane as well, not forgetting pfc’s that destroy the ozone layer. And as we all now the ozone layer plays a major part in keeping harmful UV rays out. Without the ozone layer the surface temperature of this planet would not allow any form of life to survive. It would be too HOT. Science has established that the ozone layer is not as thick as it was decades ago and at the poles there are large holes in the layer, thus more UV rays get through to the surface, making it warmer.

60 years ago there was no such thing as suncream yet apart from a few individuals no one got badly burned from being out in the bright sunshine. Today anyone can get burned unless they have sunblock on. And the factor value has increased during the last 10 years or so to compensate for the severity of sunlight.

I have no doubt that some of the information about global warming is spun to favour a particular view point on the issue. But that applies to both sides. The oil companies have a vested interest in perpetuating the myth that global warming is not happening. So do the countries that rely on fossil fuels to provide their energy needs. Governments see the global warming issue as an excuse to raise taxes. The ‘greens’ also see the global warming issue as a means of promoting their view.

It is an established fact that more than half the rain forest has been hacked down to provide timber and to provide land for either grazing or farming. The bottom line here is that half the vegetation that absorbed CO2 is no longer able to because it is not there. A plant will only absorb a certain amount of CO2 in its lifetime and will not absorb more just because it is available. In any case many plants give up some of the absorbed CO2 at night.

Our depleted flora doesn’t absorb as much CO2 than in years gone by and man and volcanoes constantly pour more muck into the atmosphere. Now how many volcanoes became active during 2006 or indeed these last ten years? So the bulk of the pollution is down to man’s activities with fossil fuels and animals belching and farting.

The earth’s atmosphere is a vast but finite resource and even a vast resource will get choked up with polluting gasses in time. Try putting some water in a glass and then adding a few drops each day. Some of the water in the glass will evaporate but if you just put in one drop more than evaporates, then sooner or later the glass will overflow.

Any half competent schoolboy/girl will know that when you put an ice cube into a tumbler of water it raises the water level but when it melts the level does not increase further. The problem with polar ice is that it is mainly fresh water and this melt will disturb the seas eco system. Of course the snow and ice on mountain ranges is also melting and that water has to go somewhere – the sea and it is this water that will raise sea levels over time and not the polar sea ice. Just a reminder - the south pole ice and snow is mainly on land so that too will add to the sea levels when it melts.

But it’s not just the increase of sea levels that is the problem. Higher average tides will also affect the land and when it comes to spring and summer extra high tides the devastation would be catastrophic.

Just another small thought – the warmer the atmosphere the greater the water absorption into the atmosphere. The greater the absorption the more rain there is to fall. The more rain the more flooding rivers.

You anti-global warming brigade can believe what you like but time will tell. Fortunately me and people of my age group will not be around to feel the full effects but our offspring will and it is they who will bear the brunt of our folly.

I prefer to err on the side of caution.

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Are you a supporter of animals circus acts steeljack?

yep , why not , they are animals put on earth to serve us , I bet your one of these hand wringing types who think that Boxing should be banned as well ............

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by jambutty;

[FONT=Times New Roman

Fortunately me and people of my age group will not be around to feel the full effects [/FONT]

a phrase from the Koran comes to mind ....." La Illah Illalah "



sure you know what it means , you know everything else

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by steeljack

yep , why not , they are animals put on earth to serve us , I bet your one of these hand wringing types who think that Boxing should be banned as well ............

Boxers choose to be boxers that's up to them - but circus animals are kept in cramped conditions and they did not make that choice. I'd rather see a lion roaming about in a safari park than performing tricks in a circus.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by steeljack

a phrase from the Koran comes to mind ....." La Illah Illalah "



sure you know what it means , you know everything else

I haven’t a clue what it means steeljack – not a clue and quite frankly I don’t care.

If you want to communicate with someone it is always a good idea to use words that they understand.

[bullseyebarb]

[quote=Billcat;379498]Utter nonsense, terry! There is an extremely broad consensus among reputable scientists. You are either not paying attention, or deliberately dissembling.

Fact - there have been zero articles on the anti-global-warming side that have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, while there have been hundreds that indicate global warming is real and with mankind as a substantial cause. (quote]

Obviously you missed my earlier post on peer review.

Why are man-made global warming proponents insisting that the matter is settled and that no further scientific research is needed? Are they afraid of additional information?

What happened to the Medieval Warm Period? In 1996 the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued a chart showing climatic change over a period of 1,000 years. This graph showed a Medieval warming period in which global temperatures were higher than they are today. In 2001 the IPCC issued another 1,000 year graph in which the Medieval warming period was missing. Why? Could it be that they were influenced by Michael Mann, (he of the famous "hockey stick" curve?") He had been quoted as saying, "we must get rid of the Medieval period." Well, it did muck up his nice little graph, so I can understand why he'd want to eliminate it.

It wasn't all that long ago that scientists were warning us about "global cooling" and another approaching ice age. In July, 1974 Time Magazine published an article about this entitled "Another Ice Age?"

There are about 160,000 glaciers around the world. The great majority of these are growing not melting.

Side-looking radar interferometry shows that the ice mass in the West Antarctic is growing at a rate of over 26 gigatons a year. The interior of Greeland is gaining ice mass.

The polar ice caps on Mars are melting. Any human activity up there? I think not.

I could go on - but most of the U.S. is in the grips of bitter winter at the moment. Chicago is reporting the coldest weather in 11 years. Even Hawaii is having an unusual cold snap. A little warming would not be a bad thing right now.