Animals killed for training

[Less]

Originally Posted by Accyexplorer

You guess wrong,

Well I will repeat,

Originally Posted by Less

one member of our serving forces saved is worth a thousand pigs.

Even if the poor soul is unfortunate enough to have come from the same gene pool as you.

[Accyexplorer]

Originally Posted by Less

Well I will repeat,




Even if the poor soul is unfortunate enough to have come from the same gene pool as you.

There are other subjects I'd replace the pigs with,I'll leave it to your imagination

[Margaret Pilkington]

The pigs are anaesthetised(they feel nothing) and the reason live pigs are used it to assess the success of the field surgeons. If you are doing this work on dead pigs you will never know if they would survive the surgery - or what complications might ensue as a result of surgery. The pigs are even given analgesia as they recover - again to see how this works for them.......this is important research.
It is done as humanely as possible.

This is another one of those sensationalist news paper stories....when I read these I alway wonder what opther news is being 'buried' - yes, I know I am a cynical baggage
Much more humane than a halal killing....and I am pretty sure that somewhere along the way you will have consumed halal meat - that is unless of course you only eat pork and bacon.

[gpick24]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The pigs are anaesthetised(they feel nothing) and the reason live pigs are used it to assess the success of the field surgeons. If you are doing this work on dead pigs you will never know if they would survive the surgery - or what complications might ensue as a result of surgery. The pigs are even given analgesia as they recover - again to see how this works for them.......this is important research.
It is done as humanely as possible.

This is another one of those sensationalist news paper stories....when I read these I alway wonder what opther news is being 'buried' - yes, I know I am a cynical baggage
Much more humane than a halal killing....and I am pretty sure that somewhere along the way you will have consumed halal meat - that is unless of course you only eat pork and bacon.

It also sounds more humane than how pigs are killed at the slaughterhouse - How are pigs slaughtered today? - Yahoo Answers

"The animal has chians put onto its legs.

The animal is then struck in the head with an air powered gun that shoots out a metal rod.
This just knocks the animal out so that the heart it still beating.

Then the chians are tightened and attached to the ceiling and the animal is the lifted up.

The throat of the animal is then slit and the animal bleeds out. The blood will basically shoots out as the heart of the animal is still beating. When the blood stops draining out the animal will die for obvious reasons. This process takes around two mintues."

[Accyexplorer]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The pigs are anaesthetised(they feel nothing) and the reason live pigs are used it to assess the success of the field surgeons. If you are doing this work on dead pigs you will never know if they would survive the surgery - or what complications might ensue as a result of surgery. The pigs are even given analgesia as they recover - again to see how this works for them.......this is important research.
It is done as humanely as possible.

This is another one of those sensationalist news paper stories....when I read these I alway wonder what opther news is being 'buried' - yes, I know I am a cynical baggage
Much more humane than a halal killing....and I am pretty sure that somewhere along the way you will have consumed halal meat - that is unless of course you only eat pork and bacon.

Are you sure they feel NOTHING?
If they are fully anaesthetised why tape up their mouth?
Im not sure that operating on a pig and trying to save its life would be the same as a human plus there are other alternatives.(Caesar patient simulator which breathes and bleeds and can be used anywhere).
Stringing these animals up for 'unnecessary purposes' is a bit different to the food industry (with or without a so called prayer) IMHO.

[gpick24]

Some would say killing animals for food is unnecessary.

[Less]

Originally Posted by Accyexplorer

Stringing these animals up for 'unnecessary purposes'

If it wasn't necessary then it wouldn't be done, you asked for opinions, you got them, they don't suit you but don't waste your time trying to change our minds, move on to the next sensational topic you want to make a pigs ear of, (try and do it on facebook though, then you won't be upsetting the sensitive folk of AccyWeb).

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Accyexplorer

Are you sure they feel NOTHING?
If they are fully anaesthetised why tape up their mouth?
Im not sure that operating on a pig and trying to save its life would be the same as a human plus there are other alternatives.(Caesar patient simulator which breathes and bleeds and can be used anywhere).
Stringing these animals up for 'unnecessary purposes' is a bit different to the food industry (with or without a so called prayer) IMHO.

Yes, they are fully anaesthetised.
The pig has a fearsome set of teeth, the mouths are taped so that when they are coming round from anaesthesia, the possibility of a bite from a semi conscious pig is minimised.
As to your question as to whether I am sure they feel nothing - of course I cannot be sure, but they are given the appropriate anaesthetic as a man of the same weight would get. Having worked in a theatre environment I know that this means they should feel nothing.
What I am sure about is, that every attempt is made to ensure that this research is done in a humane way.

These are not unnecessary purposes. I suppose you would prefer that the field surgeon practised on wounded soldiers and if they die...well, they die.
If their death can be attributed to a lack of skills then wouldn't you prefer to see those skills acquired?
Service men and women deserve the best skilled care that can be given.
If skills learned this way saved a son or daughter of yours, then I think your perspective on the research would change.

I know of the Ceasar Patient Simulator, there must be some aspect of this research work that makes the Ceasar Simulator unsuitable.

[cashman]

Margaret. its pointless trying to convince some people, A lesson i learnt many moons ago, just let em get on wi it. I try to give me view n odd time wi em,but also try to leave it at that then.

[Margaret Pilkington]

We were asked for opinions. I have given mine and justified it in a clear way.
I know I am retired, but I still take a great interest in medical matters and still read research papers.

I am very wary of research in general, but I think this type of research is valid and enhances the skills of those involved in treatment of people who are injured in a theatre of war.
Anything that makes the survival of these combatants more likely and with a better quality of life will get my vote.

I would also like to add that I am not in favour of some of the animal testing that is used in some situations - but this is one of the situations where I feel that animal testing is justified.
Accyexplorer if this doesn't sit well with you then I am sorry....I have to be honest in my response.

[Less]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Accyexplorer if this doesn't sit well with you then I am sorry....I have to be honest in my response.

No Margaret you are wrong, you do not have to apologise for giving your honest opinion to this person, he/she just has to like it or lump it.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Less, I am sorry if my honest reponse causes offence to Accyexplorer.

When you are particularly passionate about something(and we have all been there at one time or another) it is sometimes difficult to see another point of view.

I am just outlining where my opinion comes from, justifying(although you may say that no justifcation is needed) why I hold the views that I do.

[Less]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Less, I am sorry if my honest reponse causes offence to Accyexplorer.

When you are particularly passionate about something(and we have all been there at one time or another) it is sometimes difficult to see another point of view.

I am just outlining where my opinion comes from, justifying(although you may say that no justifcation is needed) why I hold the views that I do.

You put forward your views in a straightforward fashion, easily understood by 95% of AccyWebbers.

I do say you have no need to justify it, the thread starter asked for opinions, we gave honest replies, he/she didn't like the replies, tough on him/her not us.

[Accyexplorer]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Less, I am sorry if my honest reponse causes offence to Accyexplorer.

When you are particularly passionate about something(and we have all been there at one time or another) it is sometimes difficult to see another point of view.

I am just outlining where my opinion comes from, justifying(although you may say that no justifcation is needed) why I hold the views that I do.

Margaret,like I've said before I value your opinion (even when it is different to mine) same as MOST folks opinion ...thanks for clearing up why you hold the views you do.I appreciate your time an effort.

I'm just split between what I think about killing innocent animals and the benefits (if any) to saving soldiers life's.Of course if it was as clear cut as some think,then obviously I'd choose a soldiers life over a pigs.
Thanks again

[RainbowSix]

I wonder if the OP thinks that the people doing this actually "like" doing it?

Its necessary training to ensure that the medics are able top practice their training on live subjects without actually harming a human to do it.

Its not like using a crash dummy to test a car safety, it has to have living breathing flesh. Dead bodies react in different ways to live ones, wounds do too.