Are we to blame?

Lampman · 18-08-2007, 14:36

Iv'e been watching the series of programmes on Tv commemorating the Independance/creation of Pakistan.
I came away with an underlying sense of guilt.
Are we really the reason for all the trouble in the area due to our mismanagement and rapid withdrawall?
Perhaps a lesson wasn't learned as we can see in present Iraq.

garinda · 18-08-2007, 15:13

Although I knew when India gained independence, and it's partition, the programmes to mark it's sixtieth anniversary have been very interesting.

I think it's much more complicated than just blaming the British. There were already deep-rooted prejudices before the British even arrived there in the seventeenth century. Wherever there was a minority in a city or a state, be it Muslim, Sikh, or Hindu, there was cruelty and intolerance. Add to that Princely feudalism, together with a caste system, and it makes the Irish question look simple in comparisson.

Ten minutes ago I finished rewatching Ghandi. Hollywood schmatlz it may have been, but one good man's disappointment at mankinds inability to live together in a united India, was very poignant and sad, and it seems no lessons have been learned judging by the world today.

Margaret Pilkington · 18-08-2007, 15:21

Human beings continue to make similar mistakes...often because the mistakes are NEW to them....we learn nothing from the mistakes of previous generations because we were not there.
Also, while situations may look similar, there may be complex issues which are not immediately apparent.

Claire Cal · 18-08-2007, 15:32

I do think that this should be taught at school. I have found myself watching a lot of this over the last couple of days wondering to myself why i didnt know about this ever complex issue. I am 25 and it maybe me but i didnt know anything about it. Very sad indeed!

Royboy39 · 18-08-2007, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire Cal

I do think that this should be taught at school. I have found myself watching a lot of this over the last couple of days wondering to myself why i didnt know about this ever complex issue. I am 25 and it maybe me but i didnt know anything about it. Very sad indeed!

Have a look at this Clair:

Partition of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Claire Cal · 18-08-2007, 16:00

Thanx 4 that Royboy it is really interesting xx

garinda · 18-08-2007, 16:19

Just an aside, sorry for the wander.

There was a qusetion in a quiz the other day asking who was the last Empress of India. Initially I thought it was Queen Victoria, until I realised it was actually the late Queen Mother, Queen Elizabeth.

Eric · 19-08-2007, 00:49

It wasn't the british who blew away Gandhi ...

steeljack · 19-08-2007, 07:45

Are we to blame ? .......unequivcally NO, I'm getting more and more angry about all this politically correct tripe that is being laid at the doors of White Northern european culture for the plight of the third world, a guilt trip laid on us by the likes of HMG Minister Peter Hain , the one guy more responsible for the disaster thats happened in Rhodesia (Zimbabwee) than Mugabe himself , the same story that is now begining to unfold in South Africa and Namibia , exporpiation of land and businesses from white productive farmers to bone idle lazy political cronies who prefer to let their peoples starve, but lets not worry Bono and father of the year Bob Geldorf

will arrange another pop concert and save everyone.

Re. the original question , was Britain to blame for the bloodbath that followed Indian and Pakistani independance .......No the people to blame are Ghandi, Ali Jinna , and Panjit Nehru......all three lived 'westernized' lives and none of them had any idea about the lives of the local populations but each had egos bigger than Tony Blair and George Bush's combined,
note, Ghandi never missed a photo 'op' in his "nappy" even though he had a good taste in his liking for Yorkshire woven woollen tweed suits, and was also partially responsible for the demise of the Lancashire cotton trade with his boycotts.

Linking to another thread about the Malay service medal and colonialism ....I think , this was one of Britain finest hours post WW2 , it was in a way Britains Vietnam and we won , wether it was because there were no TV cameras and the army (many of whom were 2 year national servicemen) were allowed to get on and do the job is up for speculation , but what is true is that two vibrant countries evolved from what at the time was called the "Malay emergancy'' Malaya and Singapore

ok rant over .......

mez · 19-08-2007, 08:00

great, very informative rant there steeljack thank you i'd forgotton most of that.
i'd give you some karma but ive to wait now will do so tommorow.

Royboy39 · 19-08-2007, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by steeljack

Are we to blame ? .......unequivcally NO, I'm getting more and more angry about all this politically correct tripe that is being laid at the doors of White Northern european culture for the plight of the third world, a guilt trip laid on us by the likes of HMG Minister Peter Hain , the one guy more responsible for the disaster thats happened in Rhodesia (Zimbabwee) than Mugabe himself , the same story that is now begining to unfold in South Africa and Namibia , exporpiation of land and businesses from white productive farmers to bone idle lazy political cronies who prefer to let their peoples starve, but lets not worry Bono and father of the year Bob Geldorf

will arrange another pop concert and save everyone.

Re. the original question , was Britain to blame for the bloodbath that followed Indian and Pakistani independance .......No the people to blame are Ghandi, Ali Jinna , and Panjit Nehru......all three lived 'westernized' lives and none of them had any idea about the lives of the local populations but each had egos bigger than Tony Blair and George Bush's combined,
note, Ghandi never missed a photo 'op' in his "nappy" even though he had a good taste in his liking for Yorkshire woven woollen tweed suits, and was also partially responsible for the demise of the Lancashire cotton trade with his boycotts.

Linking to another thread about the Malay service medal and colonialism ....I think , this was one of Britain finest hours post WW2 , it was in a way Britains Vietnam and we won , wether it was because there were no TV cameras and the army (many of whom were 2 year national servicemen) were allowed to get on and do the job is up for speculation , but what is true is that two vibrant countries evolved from what at the time was called the "Malay emergancy'' Malaya and Singapore

ok rant over .......

That is not a rant Steeljack that is the truth..........Karma on its way.

Lampman · 19-08-2007, 13:13

Well thanks for the reminders there SteelJack,rightly or wrongly we are currently suffering payback for all the perceived wrongs that the Empire 'caused'.
I for one am still proud to be British that includes our murky past.We certainly carried a big stick in those days,now it's only the yob culture who do!

garinda · 19-08-2007, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lampman

Well thanks for the reminders there SteelJack,rightly or wrongly we are currently suffering payback for all the perceived wrongs that the Empire 'caused'.
I for one am still proud to be British that includes our murky past.We certainly carried a big stick in those days,now it's only the yob culture who do!

If for nothing else you've got to admire our organisational skills. In 1939 there were 100,000 British in India, controlling a population of 650 million people. That's quite some feat.

Less · 19-08-2007, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lampman

Iv'e been watching the series of programmes on Tv commemorating the Independance/creation of Pakistan.
I came away with an underlying sense of guilt.
Are we really the reason for all the trouble in the area due to our mismanagement and rapid withdrawall?
Perhaps a lesson wasn't learned as we can see in present Iraq.

Are we to blame? Well I think the simple answer is no!

Our forefathers may have been involved, but mainly because some Lord or rich merchant employed them on very poor wages to look after their interests, but WE were not to blame, the sins of whoever was to blame cannot be passed on to us unless we repeat the same mistakes!

Eric · 19-08-2007, 21:27

A lot of the s**t that happened in the past should not have happened, but I do not think that we have to apologise for it ... much better to put the effort into it's not happening again. There is something rather pathetic about a Canadian Prime Minister apologizing to the Japanese Canadians for their internment in the War ... Canadian veterans who were captured at Hong Kong and Singapore were justifiably p***ed off at that one.