Asian Disaster - Page 7

WillowTheWhisp · 07-01-2005, 22:53

But why?

Steven · 07-01-2005, 23:43

Willow that is the main question evrybody askes and probably never will be answered

I do not believe humans only have sex for fun because if they just wanted to have fuin surely they would use protection

every animal and plant on this earth is here priamarly to survive and secondly to reproduce and i for one do not really think we as humans are any different except we have a greater brain/ will power to resist these urges like as some people deicede to commit suicide this is against most peoples functions

simon · 07-01-2005, 23:56

Animals and plants reproduce by instinct(who designed that in them?) for the benefit of a greater creation, Humans. That is their purpose in life.

By benefit I mean food, beauty, workers, pets and friends etc

Acrylic-bob · 08-01-2005, 07:14

An athiest, a person who does not, and is unlikley to ever, believe in the existance of a deity, is as shocked and dismayed at the terrible loss of life which occured over Christmas as anyone else. And is further dismayed to hear others pronounce the event an "Act of God". Indeed, is actually quite annoyed at the logical inconsistancy of such an argument, bearing in mind all previous statements by believers that the deity they profess to believe in has only the good of humanity in mind and is all caring and all loving etc.etc.
In an attempt to convince the believer of the folly of their illogical opinion the athiest asks the question "How can your all caring, all loving God, permit this to happen to people whom you claim he cares about?

The believer, of course cannot answer the question in anything like a convincing manner and has to resort to specious arguments about the unknowability of the divine etc. The athiest, observing the believer with egg on his face feels thus further justified in his un-belief. The believer resents the athiest for pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes, but, patronisingly, forgives him anyway and continues to pray in the desperate hope that the deity knows what it is doing. The athiest sadly shakes his head at the believer's inability to accept the proposition that we are alone in the universe, that death is the end of life and that bad things happen to good people for no other reason than that the universe is random and chaotic in nature.

At no point in the argument does the athiest EVER admit that there might be even the remote possibility, under any circumstance, of the believer being right, to do so would mean that he is an agnostic, which he is not.

Thus, the recent Earthquake and Tidal Wave were merely random events. The consequent loss of life, however shocking and regretable are, likewise, random events. There is no more meaning to them than that. In this light, all attempts to explain these events as the actions of a wrathful deity on a section of the population that the believer might consider sinful or degenerate are deeply flawed since the laws of physics are not perturbed by individual human actions.

Acrylic-bob · 08-01-2005, 07:38

The bioloical imperative, the impulse to pass genes on to the next generation, exists in all living things. From the lowliest single-celled creature to the vastly more complex higher primates and is obeyed by all living things at whatever cost. This is why it is called an imperative and not an optional possibility. The Salmon, like many other animals, ceases to have any further useful function after spawning and dies, within a few hours. Humans have some life left to to them after mating solely to ensure that the young they produce are protected and nurtured until they too are ready to mate. The human body is not designed for longevity after a certain age, which is why women go through the menopause and the NHS groans under the burden of the care of the elderly, whose lives have been artificially extended by our genius beyond the normal timespan alotted to us by nature. Thus it may be argued that abortion is "unnatural" solely in that it thwarts the biological imperative.

WillowTheWhisp · 08-01-2005, 10:16

I'm going to risk sounding arrogant again but I would like to put forward my viewpoint as a believer in God. A-b describes "the believer's" point of view but that isn't actually my point of view.

In fact I totally agree with the opening sentence of the last paragraph of post 94:

Quote:

the recent Earthquake and Tidal Wave were merely random events. The consequent loss of life, however shocking and regretable are, likewise, random events. There is no more meaning to them than that.

At no time would I ever describe such events as an act of God because I do not believe that he caused them to happen. I do not see them as a punishment by a wrathful deity. I would not have the arrogance to label whole sections of humanity (or even individuals) as sinful and deserving of such acts as a punishment.

Natural disasters are exactly that, natural - usually a result of cause and effect. Something happens somewhere and causes something else to happen somewhere else.

I believe that when mankind was placed upon the earth we agreed with God that we would take responsibility for it. He agreed not to interefere. Thus we would have the opportunity to learn. It's like with our own children. If we controlled every aspect of their lives for them they wouldn't benefit at all. We have to give them enough rope and hope that they don't hang themselves. More often than not they don't but sometimes they do.

I also believe that we can pray for help and that such help is often forthcoming, but maybe, just maybe sometimes it is better for us to "go it alone" and learn from our mistakes.

My "why?" questions are directed to the people who do not share my beliefs because I find it difficult to understand what they see as being the reason behind everything.

For me the purpose of life is to learn from our earthly experiences and to progress. Some of us probably need more experience thanothers. Some of us need different experiences. Disciples once asked Jesus why a man had been born blind and if it was a punishment for something he or his parents had done. Jesus replied that it wasn't a punishment. (interesting that they mentioned it could have been something he'd done, that would have had to be before birth considering he was born blind) So what was the purpose? To teach other people compassion? To give Jesus the opportuinityt to heal him? To give Jesus and his disciples the opportunity to discuss life before birth? Lots of interesting possibilities.

In response to post 95 I also think abortion is unnatural (unless it is spontaneous abortion by the body itself) and that artificially extending life is also unnatural. It's a topic we've discussed previously and I think I said then that we are better not to interefere too much with nature.

I only feel that I want to say all this because A-b described a believer's point of view and I wouldn't like people to think that it was mine.

Acrylic-bob · 08-01-2005, 10:58

At no time would I ever describe such events as an act of God because I do not believe that he caused them to happen. I do not see them as a punishment by a wrathful deity. I would not have the arrogance to label whole sections of humanity (or even individuals) as sinful and deserving of such acts as a punishment.
Perhaps not, but there are those who do, and highly vocal they are too.

Natural disasters are exactly that, natural - usually a result of cause and effect. Something happens somewhere and causes something else to happen somewhere else.

I believe that when mankind was placed upon the earth we agreed with God that we would take responsibility for it. He agreed not to interefere.

Where in Genisis does it say that there was any such agreement? Adam was Told that he was to be given Dominion over the animals. As for an agreement of non-interference, how is this squared with events like the expulsion from eden, Noah's flood, The plagues of egypt and the ten commandments, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the imposition of a messiah? If that is not interference I don't know what is, and can only be viewed as capriciousness on the part of the deity and also bad faith in not sticking to his part of the hypothetical 'agreement'.

Thus we would have the opportunity to learn. It's like with our own children. If we controlled every aspect of their lives for them they wouldn't benefit at all. We have to give them enough rope and hope that they don't hang themselves. More often than not they don't but sometimes they do.

I also believe that we can pray for help and that such help is often forthcoming,

Here again there is the problem of divine interference, which whether invited or not would nullify an 'agreement'.

but maybe, just maybe sometimes it is better for us to "go it alone" and learn from our mistakes.

My "why?" questions are directed to the people who do not share my beliefs because I find it difficult to understand what they see as being the reason behind everything.
Is it really so difficult to accept the possibility of the proposition that there is simply nothing 'behind everything' ?

For me the purpose of life is to learn from our earthly experiences and to progress. Some of us probably need more experience thanothers. Some of us need different experiences. Disciples once asked Jesus why a man had been born blind and if it was a punishment for something he or his parents had done. Jesus replied that it wasn't a punishment. (interesting that they mentioned it could have been something he'd done, that would have had to be before birth considering he was born blind) So what was the purpose? To teach other people compassion? To give Jesus the opportuinityt to heal him? To give Jesus and his disciples the opportunity to discuss life before birth? Lots of interesting possibilities.
And all of them callous and uncaring to a horrifying degree. If I had been born blind just to help someone else understand the need to be charitable I think I would be incandescent with rage and the responsible deity would certainly get no charity from me!

In response to post 95 I also think abortion is unnatural (unless it is spontaneous abortion by the body itself) and that artificially extending life is also unnatural. It's a topic we've discussed previously and I think I said then that we are better not to interefere too much with nature.

I only feel that I want to say all this because A-b described a believer's point of view and I wouldn't like people to think that it was mine.

WillowTheWhisp · 08-01-2005, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

And all of them callous and uncaring to a horrifying degree. If I had been born blind just to help someone else understand the need to be charitable I think I would be incandescent with rage and the responsible deity would certainly get no charity from me!

I can see why you would feel that way if you do not believe that you were a part of the agreement before birth. I believe that we freely accepted or volunteered for such roles and that it will all become clear to us once again after death.

Of course I can't prove it and I don't wish to argue about it. I'm merely stating what I believe.

Without my faith I would certainly have been unable to cope with the things which have happened in recent years.

I can also understand your objections to those who blame people's sinful ways for the misfortunes which befall them. None of us are without sin of some kind and it is very wrong to feel superior or "holier than thou" and look down on others.

Margaret Pilkington · 08-01-2005, 18:45

I have no religion, and do not go to Church...... but I believe in doing the best that I can in whatever way that I can, that will do the least harm possible. I don't know if I believe in a God, but am coming to believe that there is a higher being who (maybe) directs our actions. I am happy to live in a world where people can follow their religion and culture.
The disaster in Asia was a freak episode of nature......not an act of God.

WillowTheWhisp · 08-01-2005, 20:22

That makes a lot of sense to me Margaret.

Margaret Pilkington · 09-01-2005, 17:27

I prefer to think of myself as a 'humanist'.......I do not use the Church for either Weddings od christenings......and when I die I would prefer not to use the Church for that either....... they can bury me in a wood somewhere if they want.......all I want to do is leave something behind that folk will remember me by.......good deeds and a good life.

Steven · 11-01-2005, 20:05

Tsunami Poem

Mommy! A tsunami! You heard your young child say.
But when you reached to take his hand, your son was washed away.
Mommy! A tsunami! You heard his sister scream.
You tried to run, but couldn¹t move. You woke. It was a dream.

For us, a figment of our minds while blanketed in bed.
But for those who were swept to sea, this nightmare left them dead.
Did panic fill their final thoughts? I pray they sensed God near.
I hope their death was swift so that they had no time to fear.

So why should we be spared such grief? Do we deserve to live?
But since we dream what others saw, can we do less than give?

For mommies robbed of babies, for husbands who lost wives,
For kids without their moms and dads, for all who have survived,
Let's give help to the homeless, let's fund the food they need,
Let's pray for people we don't know who claim a different creed.

Regardless of religion, let's act on what we see, for God is pleased when we reach out. We are one family

I thought this would be a good way of ending this thread i found it somewhere on the internet

Margaret Pilkington · 11-01-2005, 20:08

That is a very thought provoking verse.

Sara · 11-01-2005, 21:09

Exactly Margeret.

Smiffy16 · 12-01-2005, 22:25

I'm at Moorhead at the moment and we observed the 2 minute silence last week and have since been raising money for the Tsunami appeal.

Since then I have been trying to organise some kind of event to raise money for the people in Asia.

I have come up with a 5 a side tournament £5 pound a team on entry for all years and staff at our school......

Hopefully this will attract a lot of interest and raise a bit of cash for the people over there who really do need it, It might not be a lot be at least I know I have contributed and done my bit.