Back Stabbing The Armed Forces.

[Neil]

WOW 2nd post in 2 years Mr F but a damn good one at that.
I hope she returns to you soon, safe and well.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

1.5 million killed by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge alone.

Again, this had nothing to do with our leaving Vietnam.

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

Do you really think the South Vietnamese were better off under Communist rule?

The Vietnamese were and are better off without the French and the Americans trying to dictate their future.

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

Would the South Koreans have been likewise better off under a united Communist regime?

Getting desperate and trying to change the subject? The South Koreans had just gained independence from Japan and wanted our help to stay that way. Looks like you are trying to compare apples and oranges!

[garinda]

Originally Posted by mr flibble

I cant believe i am seeing posts saying 'why are we still out there' and 'bring them all home'.

that has to be the single worst thing that we could do.

i am sick to death of people complaining about our soldiers and airmen dieing while we are at war. what the hell do you join the armed forces for? oh yes thats right most people join because its an easy option with good pay, low living costs.

im ex royal air force and my partner is a helicopter pilot in the RAF as well, and although i would not like to have her die she joined up knowing full well she might have to fight and die for her country or as it might be somebody elses.

The reasons we are in iraq and other countrys dont matter now because the fact is we are there.

we destoyed iraq on our way in and it would be totally and unquestionably wrong for us to now just leave. it is our responcibility to stay untill the people of iraq have a some what stable situation in which they can govern there own country freely and police in a just a honest way.

Yes i admit our troops are not getting the things they need to fight and work properly and that is an issue, but our armed forces didnt get the things they needed in WW2 or WW1 and we did bloody well with out them.

I am very proud to say we have what in my opinion is the best army, air force and navy in the world and the most experianced.

and as for them using oil to fund terrorism...are you insane? iraq didnt and has never funded terrorism and certainly had NO connections with al-quiada or osama bin ladin. why? because saddam and most of iraq hate there guts because they follow a different stream of religion.

as for the incident with the apache helicopter incident, the wings are designed to be able to carry one troop on each side with a special attachment for use in an emergancy, what should they have done? use the apache and save time to save a fellow soldier or wait for a merlin and waste time?

Your profiles states you are only twenty two. How long did you serve Queen and country for, in the RAF?

You may be content for our service men and women, including your partner, to be cannon fodder, but in a democracy we have every right to discuss why this war, supposedly to rid a country of an evil dictator happened, and why just as evil ones are allowed to flourish, some of whom we have close trade and diplomatic ties with.

[garinda]

Very confusing.

Mr Flibble, you last posted two years ago, when I presume you were twenty.

'hello everybody, im the content manager and co-founder of risingbridge.co.uk, first off sorry for the lack of content but it was only setup while i was recovering from a nite out down accy, there will be more stuff on there soon so keep checkin it, peace yall'[quote]

Just how long did you serve in the RAF, and if it is so wonderful why did you leave, after what appears to be such a short time?

[mr flibble]

i unfortunetly had to leave for medical reasons when i was in a bad car accident on the M6 that subsequently resulted in damage to both my knee's.

i was only in the RAF for a short time as an engineering officer working under CIS-ENG.

what this has to do with anything ive said however is beyond me.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by mr flibble

i unfortunetly had to leave for medical reasons when i was in a bad car accident on the M6 that subsequently resulted in damage to both my knee's.

i was only in the RAF for a short time as an engineering officer working under CIS-ENG.

what this has to do with anything ive said however is beyond me.

You were lucky then. More lucky than the thousands of young men and women who have been killed in this war so far.

By the way, it was you that brought up your service history to illustrate your argument.

[mr flibble]

i did mention i was in the raf, i just dont see how long i was in or why i left is important.


anyway what is it tennyson said

'Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die'

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by mr flibble

i am sick to death of people complaining about our soldiers and airmen dieing while we are at war.

Pardon me , but I thought the Military in the UK was under the control of the Ministry of Defense, (doh. to defend the Country from outside aggression,) I dont think I remember reading any news reports about the Iraqi fleet being spotted off the Cornish coast or any blitzkriegs by the Iraqi airforce on British cities ,to the best of my knowledge the War Office has been closed down since the 1950s when the Govt. at the time decided that a bankrupt Britain was no longer a World Power and the days of Empire were over .
This is the first time the British Govt. has declared war on a country since 1939 (history lesson .....we declared war on Germany , not them on us) In other conflicts since then Britain has used its armed forces as a reaction to acts of aggresion (apart from the Suez fiasco) . or as peacekeeping forces under NATO command .
In my view the military currently being used in Iraq are being used as nothing more than mercenaries for the oil companies and the state of Israel ,
The use military forces in Afghanistan is a different story , they were sent in originally to get Bin Laden the guy behind the Sept 11 attacks but are now bogged down suporting a corrupt regime .

Now, I am going to get myself in trouble .........all this trouble in the Mid-East since Gulf war 1 / Sept 11 / present Iraqi war , I lay at the feet of Ronald Reagan and his messiah complex of ridding the world of comunism, If he had just left the Russians alone when they invaded Afghanistan and allowed them to push a bit further south into Baluchistan/Pakistan and allow them to get a warm water port there would be none of the problems we have today.

sorry for the ramble

[garinda]

Originally Posted by mr flibble

i did mention i was in the raf, i just dont see how long i was in or why i left is important.


anyway what is it tennyson said

'Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die'

I'm sorry if what I said seemed harsh, partly I agree with you. We don't have conscription in this country, and our armed services are paid to do a job. To obey orders unquestiongly. I know I couldn't do it. Especially if it was something I didn't believe was right. However I do support the very great service they provide for us.

Your comment about our troops not having the right equipment, and comparing it to the last two World Wars, suprises me. Surely if we send troops to war zones, the least they can expect is the right kit, and equipment such as body armour, which could lessen their chances of coming back in a box, or spending the rest of their lives permanently disabled.

[garinda]

Interesting to note that since the West over threw the Taliban in Afghanistan, the production of heroin as soared there, something the Taliban used to crack down on, and it seems that the NHS might consider buying the surplus smack to turn into Diamorphine to treat drug addicts in the UK.

Funny old world.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by mr flibble

i did mention i was in the raf, i just dont see how long i was in or why i left is important.


anyway what is it tennyson said

'Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die'

Tennyson was talking about an era when the soldier was considered as canon fodder for the generals to gain their war medals. The days when the generals sat behind the front line, well out of harms way, pushing bits of timber around a map committing their troops to slaughter whilst shedding crocodile tears for their loss are quite rightly long gone.

This is the 21st century and people who VOLUNTEER to serve in the armed forces deserve the very best equipment that the country can provide regardless of cost. And that statement comes from someone, me, who served for 13 years in the Royal Navy. Our troops have been let down by a government that prefers to spend billions on plush new offices, subsidies to private companies and foreign aid to despots who just keep the money for themselves.

We, with the Americans, invaded Iraq on an outright lie and since then both governments have quietly ignored that FACT and tried to justify the invasion by its effect.

Having said that we should stay to finish the job but give the troops the tools to do so.

[bullseyebarb]

Originally Posted by Billcat

Again, this had nothing to do with our leaving Vietnam.




The Vietnamese were and are better off without the French and the Americans trying to dictate their future.



Getting desperate and trying to change the subject? The South Koreans had just gained independence from Japan and wanted our help to stay that way. Looks like you are trying to compare apples and oranges!

Perfectly fine for Communists, Fascists and Islamic rads, et al to spread their poison throughout the world....but heaven forbid that Western democracies should resist this or attempt to help others do the same. Oh, OK then.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by bullseyebarb

Perfectly fine for Communists, Fascists and Islamic rads, et al to spread their poison throughout the world....but heaven forbid that Western democracies should resist this or attempt to help others do the same. Oh, OK then.

If there were any consistency to the USA sticking to its principles and only supporting democracies, or even leaders edging towards democracies, I might well agree with you. However, we have not done so. We have very generously supported all sorts of criminal and corrupt dictatorships, sometimes even against those within their country who were seeking democracy. Noriega, the Shah of Iran, the Saudi royals, Pinochet, Vietnam's Diem and Thieu, Saddam Hussein, and the ugly list goes on and on. We've not fooled much of anyone, save for those who uncritically believe only what they are asked to. That's why most of the country and most of the world believes that the USA is currently headed in the wrong direction.

As a patriotic American, I beleive that we should always practice what we preach. In the long term, it would help to spread our values to other countries, it would restore much of the trust our government has lost at home, and it would help to restore the world's good opinion of the USA.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by mr flibble

anyway what is it tennyson said

'Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die'

Fine. Soldiers should obey any legal order. I don't think anyone was saying differently, which makes me wonder why Tennyson might be pertinent to the discussion.

For us non-soldiers, we are not obliged to follow those orders. We should always evaluate where our govenrment is leading us, and speak out as we see fit. Speaking out and participating in public discussion of the issues of the day is an important part of being a member of a democracy. It's patriotic!

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by mr flibble

i am sick to death of people complaining about our soldiers and airmen dieing while we are at war. what the hell do you join the armed forces for?

I've had many friends who have been in the service. Not a one of them joined to die. They joined to make a living and defend the USA. While they practice the arts of war, the ultimate goal is to be so repected as warriors by potential foes that they would never have to go to war.

Soldiers and sailors, when it actually comes to war, are in business to make the other guys die, while not dying themselves. A paraphrase from the movie Patton: "the object is not to die for one's country, it's to make the other poor son of a bitch die for his. "