Bbc3 - Page 3

BERNADETTE · 25-10-2007, 00:22

Hold on a minute I am not being thoughtless here, you asked the question why was it asumed these MEN were immigrants? In the two part documentary I watched they were foreign. I am not saying it does not happen with white, yellow or strawberry pink people. What I will say is it is very rare when you hear of cases of MURDER on this scale. It happened a few weeks prior to this to another immigrant family not to far away. DO NOT EVER TRY TO SAY THAT I EVEN CONTEMPLATED THAT WHAT HAPPENED WAS DUE TO THAT LOVELY LADY BEING DISHONOURABLE. You are well out of order!!!

Ianto.W. · 25-10-2007, 01:11

This so called 'honour killing the was the work of a coward, who had lost control of his family. If he had murdered his wife only the French have a name for it (garinda) your que, maybe honour comes into it but not in my book.To murder his cuildren was unbelievably burtal, and without excuse.It mighnt be acceptable in bangladesh, Pity he did not stop there. Also the Banngladeshi authorities are not very co-operative in these situations. No bevy of virgins await this ratbag.

Eric · 25-10-2007, 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ianto.W.

This so called 'honour killing the was the work of a coward, who had lost control of his family. If he had murdered his wife only the French have a name for it (garinda) your que, maybe honour comes into it but not in my book.To murder his cuildren was unbelievably burtal, and without excuse.It mighnt be acceptable in bangladesh, Pity he did not stop there. Also the Banngladeshi authorities are not very co-operative in these situations. No bevy of virgins await this ratbag.

From what I understand ... and this is only from reading what I was pointed to on the web ... the murder of his wife was not even a crime of passion. It's this honour thing which bothers me. And what bothers me is that it seems latent in all cultures ... this tendency of men to treat women as possesions. And possesions which they seem to believe they have a right to destroy. And by extension, taking it to the extreme, some men may consider that their children are also possessions which may have been contaminated or damaged in some way by their partners' infidelity, real or perceived. Maybe it is not honor at all, just basic, irrational jealousy. Or maybe some guys are born as a complete waste of skin.

mani · 25-10-2007, 03:26

personally i thought that cop guy got the term right. it wasnt an honour killing but a control killing. the guy was losing control of the grip he had on his family. his wife wanted a career his daughters wudnt go abroad to get married and it must've got to the point where he felt no one was respecting him as the man of the house thing.

the best thing on that show was barry khanan blasting the local leaders for their suggestions - rightly so. there's too many dead fodder in the asian community who due to their age think doin things their way is the best and it isnt. those local leaders have held back the muslim community for so long.

after 7/7 they shud've gone out all guns blazing against the terrorists and instead they stayed quiet sat in their homes with thier hands up soem dark hole. they cud've and shud've made a stand - the muslim community wud've been respected alot more - pretty soon after this riaz's incident it became clear that the dad had done this. it wasnt just gossip - it was a fact. there was a few of those local leaders who was there as the house burnt - they knew no one cud've got in or out. instead they were too busy gettin their pics taken.

not once have i read anywhere that the local leaders condemend this. these leaders are quick to point the fingers at other people when it suits them and happily smile when it doesnt.

the amount of times i heard these guys trying to justify something like this was shocking. oh she must've been having an affair with so and so. yeah i heard that too so it must be true. yeah she was with another bloke a few hrs before she died etc and not once did any of them say yeah even if she was this shudnt have happened.

and there's one more thing i'd add on here - they're called honour killings simply cause they're asian. how many times have u read about a white bloke killing his wife/gf cause she'd cheated on him or left him isnt this what happened wiht the cheadle case?

and dont look too far in the past - the robert lund case - honour killing? or just plain murder.

one other thing that suprirsed me was that there's such a asian community living here and there's so many examples of people running these countries after commiting a crime - wouldnt it make sense for the govt to persue an extradition treaty with such places? like those two bengali lads who ran off after the death of the 6 yr old.

Ianto.W. · 25-10-2007, 13:59

Eric, Mani I agree with both of you i'm having, trouble at present typing but you have filled in the blanks for me mani, the asian community will only function correctly when the 'old guard' are gone and not there to indoctrinate the younger ones.eric controland male domination is what this is about. The Asian 'old guard' in the community are not without blame here.

BERNADETTE · 25-10-2007, 14:00

Well said Mani on all fronts. A well thought out reply that isn't biased either way. Karma sent.

mani · 25-10-2007, 15:00

ianto - exactly

i mean i know i do have some of those values that my dad had but its like mine was an arranged marriage - i'd seen her but never met her. but i know by the time my daughters come around to that age of marriage it'll be so much more easier for them to have the marriage of thier choice as the old guard will have gone and people's attitudes will be very different. yeah there still will be some of the old vibes and feelings. you cant make it go away in 5-10 yrs

i remember the time when some asian girl did a runner with her bf - it was the first time it'd happened in the local few streets so everyone knew about it. her parents didnt come out unless they really had to. fathers would go into major depression for this kinda stuff.

the one thing that can really disturb the balance is like in the riaz case - when the husband is from "back home". a freshie. cause each time they're bringing back that old mentality. some change to update their thoughts to the western world but some dont. loads of us mates used to go to one mates house adn their family was like ours no one wud bat an eyelid or question why we were there. we just were. then one of his sisters got married to someone from pakistan and when he came over and saw all this he was shocked by having unrelated males mingling in the household. so he asked his brother in law not to bring his mates around as it wasnt right. however eventually he began to come around the thinking and saw this is what happens we chill out we mingle and its like a big family so he came to us one day when we were together and apologised and said he'd been seeing things differently. so we moved back to vegetating in his house.

attitudes can change but its gonna b a long time till they're the norm.

Ianto.W. · 25-10-2007, 15:16

Great posting mani, we need educating as well, to be able to try to understand the differences in communities. Especially the 'old guard' like myself

Eric · 25-10-2007, 15:18

I don't think this is too much of a wander: what is the position of the British govt. on Sharia? In Ontario, our premier, Dalton McGuinty said in 2005, "There will be no Sharia law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians." And a further related question: is there a link between Sharia and honor killings?

garinda · 25-10-2007, 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

I don't think this is too much of a wander: what is the position of the British govt. on Sharia? In Ontario, our premier, Dalton McGuinty said in 2005, "There will be no Sharia law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians." And a further related question: is there a link between Sharia and honor killings?

Although not officially sanctioned, it's already here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nsharia29.xml

mani · 25-10-2007, 18:45

see its here in an unofficial way

what u have is a group of people sayin if it was shariah this and that wud happen - so they rule on divorces etc this way but all the decisions can still be challenged in the british courts

so for example if me and my missus had a fight and i on her. when it came to the divorce and i refused to give her a divorce cause i was being an arse then she cud contact the shariah council or the muslim council and they wud make a decision if she was elegible for a divorce. if i still refused the shariah people can put into practise legal measures whereby it would still have to go thru english courts. alternatively if when i met the shariah council they said oh according to the shariah law u must divorce ur wife and i was willing to co-operate they wud grant the divorce.

no decision is final final. they're more of a intermediatry body rather than an actual law enforcement thing

steeljack · 25-10-2007, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by mani

alternatively if when i met the shariah council they said oh according to the shariah law u must divorce ur wife and i was willing to co-operate they wud grant the divorce.

Just to clear up a couple of points ......even if you a divorce thru the 'mosque' you would still be legally married under English law and a civil divorce would still be required thru an English law court .( Do the Imans in a mosque have the same legal powers as a Priest or a Vicar) he is licensed under English law, (various marriage acts going back to HenryVIII) to perfom marriages, otherwise a registrar office wedding is also required,
A bit like what the Catholics used to have , they could get an anullment from Rome saying their marriage was no longer valid in the eyes of the Church but a decree from an English court was also required otherwise either party who re-married were guilty of bigamy .

mani · 25-10-2007, 20:47

no if u agree to their judgement u sign legal divorce documents. u sign the civil divorce. its similar power as u say to a vicar. but not every imam has the authority to award a divorce - marriage yes.

i'm not sure as to what it wud say on the divorce but in essance u sign the legal docs and then they get forwarded to the uk courts

Ianto.W. · 25-10-2007, 23:55

Kangeroo court's will always function in close knit communities but will die off with the self appointed 'judges' or so called 'Islamic Scollars' oh how I hate 'plastic titles.

Eric · 26-10-2007, 01:51

Thanks ... that cleared a lot up ... more rewarding this way than googling. On the whole, Sharia doesn't seem all that bad ... has some positive points. It comes to mind that many Canadian First Nations have similar stuff going for them, particularly in the case of the justice system. One drawback that I can see, is that it might retard the speed at which immigrant groups are intergrated into society .... and it seems as if it could cause conflict between the generations in a particular culture.

One difference between Sharia and laws which apply to Canadian First Nations (and there are over 600 of them) is that First Nations are, well, nations. And they can definitely not be called immigrants as they were here first.

It's something to mull over. Thanx again.