Benefits for the poor are spent on drugs and gambling - Page 5

Taggy · 07-12-2011, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

Why feel guilty when your not, I've had ill health for years, and was totally ****ed of when I was told I couldn't work again, but there are those and a lot of um that fain disability to claim money they are not entitle too, if these were eked out then the real needy would get more, but until we get rid of the feckless workshy scroungers, which in fact escalated to outrageous propositions while the last government through money about like confetti, and the likes off Mancie think is quite okay for them to carry on, the game really is a boggy

I'm not saying that Genuine Disabled people feel guilty Jaysay, but they do feel...and indeed there's increasing evidence to suggest they ARE being persecuted & victimised because the constant bad press they receive, which is totally out of proportion to the magnitude of the problem. Its surprising how many people actually believe the garbage that's written in the press these days...but they do. No one doubts that there are people manipulating the benefits system, but i'm sure they could be targeted in a better & more efficient way, than to constantly brow beat the public into believing that the vast majority on benefits are work shy scroungers!

We all know that Labour made many mistakes, but i still believe that even though some of the money they spent has gone into the wrong hands, there was still a geniune attempt to help the poorer people & impoverished areas. That's surely a more laudable approach than to pamper to the elite & pussyfoot around tax avoidance which is a far bigger slice of the "fraud cake" than benefit fraud is. Most of the wasted benefit money is actually by Government error rather than actual fraud, but Government & sympathetic media doesn't like to highlight that.

Why don't we see the same level of publicity and anger from Government & Media over Tax Evasion when it costs us so much more, its just double standards & is basically saying crime committed by the wealthy is acceptable.

Tax evasion costs Treasury 15 times more than benefit fraud - Citywire Money

Best Regards - Taggy

Mancie · 07-12-2011, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

You have me so wrong. I am NOT defending the government.
I have no allegiance to any political party.
And it really doesn't matter how I answer you, you already have me down in your own mind as someone who goes along with a tory party line.
No, working tax credits are not seen as benefits culture.....because there is a aprent earning those credits...paying into the system.
If you have read and digested anything I have posted you will know exactly what I am talking about....but it suits your argument to dismiss those points in ordernot to dirupt your vision of me.

You obviously have not read of my impoverished upbringing.
Mancie, I really can't be bothered trying to remove your rose tinted glasses anymore.
We are in a mess socially and financially.
I don't care about the colour of the coat of the rescuers......all that matters is the rescue.

I don't think I've got you all wrong and I don't think you have an allegiance to any party..but you have always defend this governments policy cuts regarding benefits and still do.
All your talk of how hard you had it in a past implies that the poor in our society should be made to suffer like you and your family did...whatever you think of the "welfare state" it was put in place as a means for those at the bottom to have a half decent life and the chance to improve their life..but now you seem to think all should stay on the bottom.. I believe that has always been the Tories policy and It's not just me.

Mancie · 08-12-2011, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

You've got to remember BG that the ills of this country have, in history, only started on the 3rd May 1979 and the 6th of May 2010, well that's according the Pinky and Perky or north and south of the border. it seems funny though that they conveniently forget what happened in the years leading up to these dates, its always easier getting into the mire than getting out of it, they're great at the first part but crap at the second, always leaving it to others to clear up while the main protagonists sail of into the sunset to make their own fortunes

You forgot the government of 1945-51 who set up the NHS and welfare and pensions...are you still bitter and feel the pain because your beloved tories lost thier fight in opposing everything?..as for creating mire what do you say when the present government has borrowed the most in history and the defiect is 20% higher than when they took power?..edit.. oh dear I'm on ingnore so you won't see this

floodlight · 08-12-2011, 04:45

i have a feeling that very soon this kind of thread will become irrelevant as the universal credit is introduced.... knowing how local authorities have "managed" change in the past just think for example when they have to pass over responsibility for administering housing benefit to central government.....and as for paying people their benefits monthly...

Margaret Pilkington · 08-12-2011, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie

I don't think I've got you all wrong and I don't think you have an allegiance to any party..but you have always defend this governments policy cuts regarding benefits and still do.
All your talk of how hard you had it in a past implies that the poor in our society should be made to suffer like you and your family did...whatever you think of the "welfare state" it was put in place as a means for those at the bottom to have a half decent life and the chance to improve their life..but now you seem to think all should stay on the bottom.. I believe that has always been the Tories policy and It's not just me.

Utter rubbish Mancie.
If I thought that, I would not have made a better life for myself by education, perseverance and hard work...starting at the bottom and working up.......but that doesn't suit your ideas of me or my rationale of taking responsibility for yourself. Not expecting to be given things.

All my siblings have made good lives for themselves because we were given something that seems sadly lacking today....a work ethic.......work at something......it might not be exactly what you want to do, but it will do until something better comes along. We knew that if we didn't work, then we didn't eat. We were not given benefits....cod liver oil,orange juice...free school dinners...that was all we got.

It is because of my poor start that I developed the determination to do better for myself.
I do not need a history lesson fron you either.
You do not have to tell me anything about the Welfare state........I was there when it started. It was never meant to sustain people long term. It was a helping hand....it was means tested so that those who truly were poor got the money, anyone else had to fend for themselves.

At one time my mother was earning one shilling more than the poverty level, which meant we were poor, but not quite poor enough to claim any assistance. she was told that if she left my father with the children they would be able to claim National Assistance.
What do you think she did? She went out and got another job.

You seem to KNOW what I want, but you are wide of the mark.
I want benefits to go to those who truly need them.......those who have worked and are not in work at present(whether that be because of illness, unemployment whatever).
I want people to take seriously, their responsibility to maintain themselves ....not leave everything to governments(whatever colour the government coat is - I don't damn well care).
I want people to be educated and trained, so that they are suitable to take the jobs on offer.
I want the people of this country to be emplyed first above migrants...not the other way about.
I want benefits to be a short term thing...with more help to get people into work....and jobs that are sustainable.
This is my Christmas list.

I know that come Christmas morning all that I will find in my stocking will be a hole.

jaysay · 08-12-2011, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taggy

I'm not saying that Genuine Disabled people feel guilty Jaysay, but they do feel...and indeed there's increasing evidence to suggest they ARE being persecuted & victimised because the constant bad press they receive, which is totally out of proportion to the magnitude of the problem. Its surprising how many people actually believe the garbage that's written in the press these days...but they do. No one doubts that there are people manipulating the benefits system, but i'm sure they could be targeted in a better & more efficient way, than to constantly brow beat the public into believing that the vast majority on benefits are work shy scroungers!

We all know that Labour made many mistakes, but i still believe that even though some of the money they spent has gone into the wrong hands, there was still a genuine attempt to help the poorer people & impoverished areas. That's surely a more laudable approach than to pamper to the elite & pussyfoot around tax avoidance which is a far bigger slice of the "fraud cake" than benefit fraud is. Most of the wasted benefit money is actually by Government error rather than actual fraud, but Government & sympathetic media doesn't like to highlight that.

Why don't we see the same level of publicity and anger from Government & Media over Tax Evasion when it costs us so much more, its just double standards & is basically saying crime committed by the wealthy is acceptable.

Tax evasion costs Treasury 15 times more than benefit fraud - Citywire Money

Best Regards - Taggy

Excuse me but why is this always rolled out when we have a Tory government or should I say Tories involved in government, I can't remember one single initiative brought in my Labour in thirteen years to even try to tackle this universal problem suffered by every country in the world. Benefit fraud is an entirely different thing, which was allowed to escalate out of control between 1997 & 2010, this money paid out to people who are not entitled to it, of the backs of hard working people who do give a damn and get out of bed in a morning. For years the benefit system has needed overhauling, you know that I know that, but of course the likes of Mancie say the poorest in society are being targeted, a lot of these so called "poorest in society" are in that position because they chose to be so, it takes effort to get out of bed every morning before 11am, effort some people will never be prepared to make whilst the state is prepared to pay out money which encourages them to stay there

Margaret Pilkington · 08-12-2011, 10:53

John, you and I know that Mancie and his sidekick believe that everything the Labour governments did whilst in office was hunky dory.....he knows that in the past you were a conservative supporter....it doesn't matter what you are now Mancie and his scottish sidekick cannot see past that.

Common sense dictates, that the state cannot afford to continue paying the spiralling costs of benefits. Frank Field (a Labour MP, no less),recognised this. It might have been a decade ago......it was a long time anyway. And here we are with nothing done.

Why? Because no political party will take the initiative to carry out a radical overhaul.

Benefits have always been a hot potato - no political party wants to tackle it. They tinker around the edges hoping it will placate the electorate and then they leave decisive(difficult, unpopular) decisions to be made by someone else.

Mancie believes that we all must be blinded by political spin, and we must all be led by the nose by our political dogmas.
I have no political dogmas. I follow my own core values. So shoot me for it.

Less · 08-12-2011, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

it takes effort to get out of bed every morning before 11am, effort some people will never be prepared to make whilst the state is prepared to pay out money which encourages them to stay there

May I make a few proposals that just might result in no more dole scroungers, benefit fiddlers, and malingerers taking advantage of invalidity?

1/ Anyone unemployed will be removed from their homes and sent for 're-education', in countryside camps where they will learn the joys of the work ethic by planting and harvesting potatos and strawberries for the exclusive use of their betters.
2/ Anyone that has not put away a nest egg of large enough capacity to see them through their old age will not be allowed to retire. If they attempt to retire in the hopes of a state pension they will go for re-education as in 1/.
3/ Anyone that claims to have any form of incapacity and does not have the funds for private care will be removed to a local workhouse and kept in in single sex wards, any husband and wife couple will not be allowed visiting rights. Any person found complaining either about their gruel, living conditions or, the menial tasks, (such as sowing mail bags), will be removed and sent for re-education as in 1/.

You must realise that what I propose are only temporary measures as once we have organised the gas chambers and furnaces we can get on with cleansing our society once and for all.

I think this method of making sure that only those pure in spirit and deed are allowed the right to live alongside their betters, therefore I propose that we call it, 'The Final Solution'.
After all, 'Work Makes Free', and if we act quickly upon this we could have a utopia that could last a thousand years.

OR

We could stop blaming the wrong people for the problems we all need to work together to cure.

jaysay · 08-12-2011, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Less

May I make a few proposals that just might result in no more dole scroungers, benefit fiddlers, and malingerers taking advantage of invalidity?

1/ Anyone unemployed will be removed from their homes and sent for 're-education', in countryside camps where they will learn the joys of the work ethic by planting and harvesting potatos and strawberries for the exclusive use of their betters.
2/ Anyone that has not put away a nest egg of large enough capacity to see them through their old age will not be allowed to retire. If they attempt to retire in the hopes of a state pension they will go for re-education as in 1/.
3/ Anyone that claims to have any form of incapacity and does not have the funds for private care will be removed to a local workhouse and kept in in single sex wards, any husband and wife couple will not be allowed visiting rights. Any person found complaining either about there gruel, living conditions or, the menial tasks, (such as sowing mail bags), will be removed and sent for re-education as in 1/.

You must realise that what I propose are only temporary measures as once we have organised the gas chambers and furnaces we can get on with cleansing our society once and for all.

I think this method of making sure that only those pure in spirit and deed are allowed the right to live alongside their betters, therefore I propose that we call it, 'The Final Solution'.
After all, 'Work Makes Free', and if we act quickly upon this we could have a utopia that could last a thousand years.

OR

We could stop blaming the wrong people for the problems we all need to work together to cure.

How can you work together when some of the people are the problem

Less · 08-12-2011, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

How can you work together when some of the people are the problem

Yes you are.

Neil · 08-12-2011, 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

murdoch will never forget or forgive the unions for wapping so they have their own set agenda for the unions.

What do you think happened at Wapping?

From what I have seen Murdoch did not let the unions tell him how to run his business.

Margaret Pilkington · 08-12-2011, 11:45

Why would John be a problem....might it be because he is on benefits?
Benefits, he has earned over the years. He did work for those...as you have worked for yours.
Therein lies the difference.

Margaret Pilkington · 08-12-2011, 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie

as for creating mire what do you say when the present government has borrowed the most in history and the defiect is 20% higher than when they took power?..edit.. oh dear I'm on ingnore so you won't see this

And why did the governemnt have to borrow this money? Might it have been because the last government(sorry about bringing this up) left nothing in the country's coffers because of their profligate spending.
Do you think that if the last government had been elected things would have been aby different, because if you do, you seriously need a reality check.

Less · 08-12-2011, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Why would John be a problem....might it be because he is on benefits?
Benefits, he has earned over the years. He did work for those...as you have worked for yours.
Therein lies the difference.

No not because he is on benefits, Ihe is entitled to them, of that there is no question.

He is part of the problem because like you he is blaming the wrong people, how could a few misguided people that have no work ethic be the cause of all our woes?
They aren't, they have no power, but the ones in power would like you to blame someone and as usual these are an easy target.

Margaret Pilkington · 08-12-2011, 13:02

I am glad you clarified your meaning.

These people who have no power...they have the same power as you or I.
You worked to pay into the system. You have the power of a vote....they too have the same power...now how they exercise this power is up to them.

I have no gripe at all with those who find themselves on hard times, through no fault of their own......illness, unemployment, disability. Benefits were formulated to help them through the tough times.

I begrudge paying taxes to keep those who are unwilling to get off their sofa's and get work of some description....and don't, please don't tell me that these are in a minority. There are whole estates(one in Rochdale that I know of - I have friend who is a health visitor there) where no-one works......where no-one wants to work....it is much easier to draw benefits. They don't pay anything into the system......(from what my friend tells me) they seem to have cigarettes and booze.....and that's alright is it?

they have the power to get educated, to get trained, they have the power to get up each day and go out and find something to do...even if it is only in a volunteer capacity...it would be work that could be put on their CV, so that a future employer could see that they actually are reliable and want to work.

Powerlessness is a form of victimhood......it doesn't give absolution from responsibility.