BENEFITS hmmmm

[Margaret Pilkington]

I'm sure that those you mention who fill in their job searches incorrectly are in the minority.
And missing an appointment - well, why would you if you know the consequences, after all it isn't like you are going to work?
If you know that your benefits are going to be stopped then you get to your appointment in whatever way you can.....on time!

This may sound harsh and unfeeling, but if you want to show someone that you can be responsible you have to get your act together.

[lindsay ormerod]

Originally Posted by Accyexplorer

Thanks for your input Lindsay.
I'm aware it's not "rocket science",If I can get it,then it must be child's play
Genuine folk who are unlucky enough to find themselves on benefits are struggling,while folk that know how to play the system,for example,criminals on benefits are doing alright from said system.
Its the genuine claimants though that are losing everything because they might have missed a appointment or didn't fill in their job search correctly so them bleeps at the job centre sanction them,it's these folk that I'm concerned about not the lazy,criminal ones.

The "bleeps" at the job centre are just doing their jobs, if someone who is allegedly unemployed can't get themselves down to the office to sign it's fair to assume that a) they forgot,b) they can't be bothered c) something calamitous has happened or d) they are working. In any of the above cases their benefit will likely be suspended. If the claimant then provides a good reason for the omission their claim will be resumed from the date it was suspended. At the end of the day the taxpayer is paying for these benefits, and if they are withheld temporarily whilst the recipients provide proof that they are still entitled to the benefits it's a safeguard against fraud.

[Margaret Pilkington]

That seems straightforward enough Lindsay.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by lindsay ormerod

The "bleeps" at the job centre are just doing their jobs, if someone who is allegedly unemployed can't get themselves down to the office to sign it's fair to assume that a) they forgot,b) they can't be bothered c) something calamitous has happened or d) they are working. In any of the above cases their benefit will likely be suspended. If the claimant then provides a good reason for the omission their claim will be resumed from the date it was suspended. At the end of the day the taxpayer is paying for these benefits, and if they are withheld temporarily whilst the recipients provide proof that they are still entitled to the benefits it's a safeguard against fraud.

So someone lying in bed because of flu, tonsilitis or whatever, worries that his benefits will be stopped temporarily because he can't sign on in time, fearing that his kids will go hungry, have no heat etc.., he drags himself out of bed, signs on, catches pneumonia. gets complications caused by malnourishment and stress due to having to provide for his family for a week on what Cameron, Blair or Brown spend on a meal out with his missus. He ends up in hospital, has yet more forms to fill in because he is not now available to work and his benefits are temporarily suspended anyway.

He doesn't want to fill out forms, all he wants to do is sleep and recover, but he knows he has to force himself for the sake of his family, in his drug addled state, he screws up the claim form, it takes months to sort it out..meanwhile he gets up to his ears in debt to Wonga or some other loan shark, he's about to lose his home...simply because he got sick.

There's always an alternative view..

The benefit system is too rigid, there is no room to manoeuvre. There are the minority that know how to screw the system, and there are the majority that are screwed by the system. The 'bleeps' offer no real help, they simply go by the book, just doing their jobs, ticking boxes, dotting the i's and crossing the t's. No doubt they have become jaded by the ever increasing workload and strictures placed on them, but at least they have a job, which is more than the jaded raggedy man across from them who has applied for shedloads without even getting an interview has.

Your use of the term 'alledgedly unemployed' would not go amiss on the comments page of the Daily Mail..it's degrading to those who through no fault of their own have been thrown on the scrapheap by successive government policy, greedy bankers, crap teachers etc..

[Margaret Pilkington]

There is always someone else to blame.
It seems that people do not want to take the responsibility for themselves anymore.
If someone is genuinely sick and in bed, then I am sure that there has to be a policy to cover this.
When Lindsay uses the term 'allegedly' it is because she knows that there are some people who work and claim benefits....Lindsay knows this because she is at the sharp end of the benefits system and knows exactly how it works.
The room for manoeuvre is the room for fraud.....claiming benefits that you are not entitled to is stealing from my pocket(and yours).

I have no grumbles with those who are in genuine need....they need a helping hand.....but those who are, as you put it 'know how to screw the system' are there.....and it is these people who are defrauding you and me(the taxpayer) making it necessary to have systems in place that make such fraud harder.....and in that way making harder for those in genuine need of help.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

There is always someone else to blame.
It seems that people do not want to take the responsibility for themselves anymore.
If someone is genuinely sick and in bed, then I am sure that there has to be a policy to cover this.
When Lindsay uses the term 'allegedly' it is because she knows that there are some people who work and claim benefits....Lindsay knows this because she is at the sharp end of the benefits system and knows exactly how it works.
The room for manoeuvre is the room for fraud.....claiming benefits that you are not entitled to is stealing from my pocket(and yours).

I have no grumbles with those who are in genuine need....they need a helping hand.....but those who are, as you put it 'know how to screw the system' are there.....and it is these people who are defrauding you and me(the taxpayer) making it necessary to have systems in place that make such fraud harder.....and in that way making harder for those in genuine need of help.

Dang..we used to agree on so much, yet we now seem to be banging heads with each other on every thread..so much for the clique theory

First, there is a policy to deal with someone who goes in hospital..job seekers is stopped, and you have to put in a different claim like I pointed out?

Secondly, I don't deny the con artists, I simply state that they are a minority that know how to screw the system to the detriment of those in need. If as you say Lindsay is at the sharp end, why can't she do something about it? Is it because of the strictures that I also pointed out.

Let me ask you a question..If you paid your tax knowing that nine people with families in real need were made safe but one person was spending your money on flat screen TV's would you stop your contribution?

Now I'll ask another..If you paid your tax knowing that ONE person with a family in real need was made safe but NINE people were buying flat screen TV's would you stop your contriution?

[Margaret Pilkington]

Guinness, we are not banging heads. It would be a very boring forum if we all agreed on everything.
As for my tax contributions - unlike some people in this country, I have no choice but to,pay up....the taxman gets his share before I even get a sniff of my money.

My point was,(although I am sure I don't need to labour it) was that every person who claims benefit fraudulently is stealing from those in real need.

And when I said Lindsay is at the sharp end.....I meant that she deals with benefit claimants and knows the ins and outs of the current system.....not that she is in a position to alter things......only governments can do that.....and so far they have been almost impotent in dealing effectively with benefit reform(mainly because it has become custom and practice).

When I am in a spot of bother, I rely on my own efforts first and foremost to get myself out of it.....that is called self reliance, self respect. I am responsible for myself.
We do not foster self respect or self reliance by offering a lifetime on benefits.

I have said it many times before, and I guess I will say it many times in the future.....benefits should be a helping hand. They should not be something that is seen as an alternative to work, and they should never be more lucrative than a job.

There are always going to be divisions of wealth...those who have, and those who have not.
Well,until the day when all the money and lands are divided equally amongst the people.
Is that Communism.....? Doesn't China subscribe to communism?
Well, I have news for you......go to China and see how that works. I can tell you for nothing, China have their rich and elite too.
That is the nature of humanity. (Like the poor, the greedy are always with us) You have to give those who have very little, the means to escape their lot by their own hands.....and benefits are not the way.

By the way Guinness, I hope we can still be friends in spite of our divergent views. I really do respect your views.....and I value our discussions.

[accyman]

theres plenty of ex benefits advisors or currently employed people at the job centers who will tell you that there is an unofficial policy of taking peoples benefits away and targets to be met.Staff are been given warnings and their own jobs put in jepordy if they do not kick enough people off benefits via sanctions.Some people have been fortunate enough to be in a position where they can walk out of tehir job in distgust where as others have had to do as they are told or loose their jobs and be on the other side of the desk worrying if their benefit will be stopped for any old trumped up reason.

some people deserve to loose their benefit but many dont

for £55 per week someone is not only supposed to exist on that pitifull amount but also spend 8 hours a day looking for work.Im not sure if teh job center pays for peoples bus fares or internet so that they can get to the job center or libary if they dont have internet at home but after basics such as food and house hold bills there is little if anything at all left to pay for things such as bus fares , internet and news papers.

its very easy to sit back and call people lazy and scum but one day you too could loose your job and find yourself on £55 per week coppering up in lidel and sat in the dark for 2 days until your next lot of money comes allowing you to put electricity into the card meter

maybe give people on job seekers allowance a bus pass to make travel to intervies and looking for work a reality rather than yet another expense out of a tiny amount of money

[Margaret Pilkington]

Yes Accyman, it would be helpful for those seeking work to be given the facilities to ensure they can search effectively.

[accyman]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Yes Accyman, it would be helpful for those seeking work to be given the facilities to ensure they can search effectively.

what this current lot have managed to do is stigmatize people on benefits to the extent that people not on benefits couldnt care less how badly people on benefits are treated.

theres plenty out there who are on benefits who sell drugs , work full time and run every scam in the book but its hard work and costly to catch them people.

its much easier to take money off the vulnerable and bad mouthing the poor is free

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

By the way Guinness, I hope we can still be friends in spite of our divergent views.

That goes without saying

Originally Posted by accyman

what this current lot have managed to do is stigmatize people on benefits to the extent that people not on benefits couldnt care less how badly people on benefits are treated.

theres plenty out there who are on benefits who sell drugs , work full time and run every scam in the book but its hard work and costly to catch them people.

its much easier to take money off the vulnerable and bad mouthing the poor is free

After 12 pages of debate...those three lines pretty much hit the nail on the head

[Accyexplorer]

They don't do it to your face anymore (it may traumatise their precious staff when you go berserk for having your life shattered to meet government stats).Them "bleeps" at the JC do it over the phone now, like cowards.
As for filling in job searches (lol) Its been proved that some just write the same things week in, week out and get away with it.How the DWP don't catch on and think "Hey, this lad/lass is talking out of his/her backside." is beyond me.i think one bloke wrote his shopping list down...It didn't even get checked...they should have their ruddy wage sanctioned.

[accyman]

Originally Posted by Accyexplorer

They don't do it to your face anymore (it may traumatise their precious staff when you go berserk for having your life shattered to meet government stats).Them "bleeps" at the JC do it over the phone now, like cowards.
As for filling in job searches (lol) Its been proved that some just write the same things week in, week out and get away with it.How the DWP don't catch on and think "Hey, this lad/lass is talking out of his/her backside." is beyond me.i think one bloke wrote his shopping list down...It didn't even get checked...they should have their ruddy wage sanctioned.

thats because lots of staff are going off on the sick with stress because of both the pressure to sanction people been put on them and the abuse from people who are sanctioned

the governments own methods are making the people who impliment them on their behalf ill

you cant punch someone over the phone and although there may be a few who enjoy making people suffer and get an ego trip out of it the majority of people at teh job center dont need teh crap and definatly dont need to be facing written warnings for not cutting peoples benefits off

i think i mentioned before in this thread or elsewhere i know of a single mother with two under age 11 children who was sanctioned for 12 weeks because she was moving home and couldnt look for work that day

[Accyexplorer]

Benefits are the minimum amount of money the 'Government claims' they need to live on. On a sanction you get nothing or a small percent of that money.
How do the DWP/JC get away with changing what the 'law' says they need to live on?

[Less]

The people working at the job centre aren't bleeps, they are ordinary folk doing a difficult job.
I bet if there was an alternative method of being a wage slave most of them would be out of there like a shot.

Don't shoot the messenger.