Beyond The Call Of Duty - Page 2

jambutty · 24-07-2008, 08:42

OK! Maybe I’m being a bit dense here, but how direct can a grenade exploding underneath you be?

Do they expect the enemy to stick a Kalashnikov up his nose before calling it “coming under direct fire”?

This award is political. Can’t have a squaddie getting a VC.

Royal Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher executed the ultimate act of selfless bravery by deliberately putting himself between his squad and an exploding grenade to shield his mates from injury or death.

jaysay · 24-07-2008, 09:03

I agree that this guy should have recieved the VC, but if you read the article it says why there is a diffeance, VC is awarded for gallantry up and above the call of duty, under enemy fire, the GC is awarded for he same reason, but not under enemy fire, but to me a hero is a hero, and this chaps act was very selfless and with no thought for his own safety

jambutty · 24-07-2008, 11:30

I am definitely being rather dense but how can the MOD claim that an exploding enemy grenade is not under fire?

What surprises me even more is that this incident happened way back on the 9th February 2008 and this is the first that we hear of it.

BBC NEWS | UK | Hero tells how he saved comrades

cashman · 24-07-2008, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

I am definitely being rather dense but how can the MOD claim that an exploding enemy grenade is not under fire?

What surprises me even more is that this incident happened way back on the 9th February 2008 and this is the first that we hear of it.

BBC NEWS | UK | Hero tells how he saved comrades

no ya aint being dense,its under fire- end of. shouldn't surprise ya though he was n oik not a Rank.

jaysay · 24-07-2008, 16:20

According to the news this morning the soldier triped a booby trap grenade, whilst on ordinary surveillance duties, not in any kind of fire fight

jambutty · 24-07-2008, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

According to the news this morning the soldier triped a booby trap grenade, whilst on ordinary surveillance duties, not in any kind of fire fight

During the Jeremy Vine show today Royal Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher was interviewed and he stated that he and his 3 buddies were on patrol, the objective of which was to check a compound that was suspected of being a bomb making ‘factory’ and to disable it.

So whatever you heard had got it wrong. The patrol was on a seek and destroy mission.

jaysay · 25-07-2008, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

During the Jeremy Vine show today Royal Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher was interviewed and he stated that he and his 3 buddies were on patrol, the objective of which was to check a compound that was suspected of being a bomb making ‘factory’ and to disable it.

So whatever you heard had got it wrong. The patrol was on a seek and destroy mission.

Well what I heard was suposed to be a quote fro the guy, he gave the reason for his actions was that he felt giulty for putting his mates at risk by stumbling on and arming the grenade

Nori Brick · 25-07-2008, 12:48

what he did was above and beound the call of duty an he should be awaded the VC, it shouldn't whether he set the trap off or not he put his team mates before himself that to me is pure bravery give the lad the respect he deserves.

WillowTheWhisp · 25-07-2008, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

According to the news this morning the soldier triped a booby trap grenade, whilst on ordinary surveillance duties, not in any kind of fire fight

I think that's the crucial point. It doesn't make what he did any less brave and selfless and it really does seem rather foolish that there should be this distinction but that's where the line is drawn. The VC is only awarded to military personnel who are in direct conflict with the enemy (ie as in shooting at each other). The GC is for civilians and military personnel not involved in direct combat and that includes bombs and booby traps. They don't count as the enemy soldier isn't actually there on hand at the time. It does seem rather petty though and what this chap did was incredible.

jambutty · 25-07-2008, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well what I heard was suposed to be a quote fro the guy, he gave the reason for his actions was that he felt giulty for putting his mates at risk by stumbling on and arming the grenade

Royal Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher was interviewed live on the programme, as was his mother from the Birmingham studio.

jaysay · 25-07-2008, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Royal Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher was interviewed live on the programme, as was his mother from the Birmingham studio.

I'm not disagreeing with you JB I too think he should have got the VC, I'm merely saying what I heard and passed it on.

jambutty · 25-07-2008, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

I think that's the crucial point. It doesn't make what he did any less brave and selfless and it really does seem rather foolish that there should be this distinction but that's where the line is drawn. The VC is only awarded to military personnel who are in direct conflict with the enemy (ie as in shooting at each other). The GC is for civilians and military personnel not involved in direct combat and that includes bombs and booby traps. They don't count as the enemy soldier isn't actually there on hand at the time. It does seem rather petty though and what this chap did was incredible.

So the officer killed whilst trying to defuse an UXB during the last war shouldn’t have been awarded the VC? But then he was an officer.

Do some research on the VC (start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross) and you will find out that it is down to the award committee (the proper name of which escapes me for the moment) whether an act of bravery is worthy of an award and which.

I did and I was surprised to find out that VC did not command a salute from all ranks but it was only tradition, albeit a tradition that no one objected to and was in fact proud to salute a VC.

It does not mention that the VC can only be awarded to those who are in ‘direct’ action with the enemy.

In any case what is direct action? What do you mean by ‘there on hand’? How far away is ‘on hand’? The modern rifle can kill at over half a mile. That can hardly be called ‘on hand’. A special snipers rifle can double that range. The old Lee Enfield rifle could kill at one mile. Of course you had to be a darned good shot with it. I could hit a three feet square target at one thousand yards so imagine what a real marksman could do. For all the patrol knew the Taliban could have been a few hundred yards away just waiting for them to get closer if the booby traps didn’t work.

The patrol was in a war zone whether bullets were flying or not. Shrapnel from a grenade certainly was.

onlyme · 25-07-2008, 16:23

To be fair, I dont think the poor lad will be bothered which one he gets, thankfully he came away with his life.

The lads shouldnt be there, not our war. Or until top brass can work out what the hells is doing anyway. How many times do our lads have to fight to win a town against the taliban, give it back to the 'normal' people, only to have to do it all again

Ludicrous

Eric · 25-07-2008, 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyme

To be fair, I dont think the poor lad will be bothered which one he gets, thankfully he came away with his life.

The lads shouldnt be there, not our war. Or until top brass can work out what the hells is doing anyway. How many times do our lads have to fight to win a town against the taliban, give it back to the 'normal' people, only to have to do it all again

Ludicrous

I don't know about the first part. Altho' no doubt thankful that he came away with his life, the VC is the VC ... it doesn't matter that the George Cross is given for the same selfless acts of bravery as is the VC, whatever the authorities say it is still not the Victoria Cross. Ok, he survived; but he didn't think of his own skin when he risked his life for his comrades ... he didn't analyse the situation, he just did it ... in uniform, in a war zone, and it was an enemy device; I mean, how much clearer can it get!

And on the second part I fully agree ... 88 Canadians have lost their lives in Kandahar Province, and the Taliban are still there, just as strong, and just as determined.

Boeing Guy · 26-07-2008, 11:11

This very brave lad could have died, and had no idea when he made the selfless choice to jump on the grenade that his bergan would absorb the blast.

VC at the least, Knight the lad as well, he is far more deserving than most of the fools we award kighthoods to, hell people wanted David 'bloody'Beckham to have one not that long ago, he's not a hero.

This lad shows the sort of commitment and honour our Boys and Girls have in our forces and what does our government do, s@@t on em', how dare they.
Remember it is this government who broke the conenvent with our soilders, we should treat them with the respect they so rightly deserve.
I would be proud and honoured to meet this brave man, who is far braver than me, he is a credit to our nation and one that the youth should be looking upto rather than the over paid yob's we have who call themselves footballers etc...