Boy, 11, is shot dead in car park

[LancYorkYankee]

First to Busman, when I say the Church has failed, I didn't come this conclusion just over this most recent tragedy. It is my opinion, that, since the 1960s, the church has lost a whole generation of kids, now adults. No, not all Churches and not all faiths.

Here in America, I've seen people turned off of Churches because of various reasons. Alot is do to overbearance, threats, fear, control, etc.,. Also, many, many churches have failed due to corruption, self-indulgence, and putting all the focus on the men who led them. And then failed them.

Brian

[LancYorkYankee]

When I think of a broken home, it doesn't mean single parent homes in my view. Heck, we've all seen 2 parent homes that were certainly broken. I don't believe it's a monetary thing either. Some of the worst vandals and drug users in College were from upper class families.

To me a home is broken when love, discipline, and consequences for actions are not there. When you have a snotty little brat yelling at both Mum and Dad in the market cause they won't buy them a candy bar. That's broken (IMO). Worse yet (IMO) is when said parent turns around and buys the little thug the candy after all.

Or the "my little Johnny would never do or say that!" Or at recreational sports games the parents that constantly screaming at the referees, the coaches, their kids. Or the kids who never have a parent come see them play cause they're "too busy."

I guess it all comes down to children having good, loving,role models. That can be Mom, Dad, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, Grandparents, neighbors, heroes, etc. Just people in their lives who will teach, love, hug, discipline, guide.

Yes, many of us had none of these and we did turn out fairly okay.

Brian

[panther]

its says on sky that the killer could be as young as 13!!, where on earth do they get the guns at that age!. my daughter is 13 and she says she wouldnt dream of carrying a gun let alone firing one! tuffer laws are needed NOW!!

[cashman]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

So whats the answer - advanced parenting courses for parents to be? Teach respect and good behaviour. What goes on in the home we dont know. We only know what goes on in our own homes not in anybody elses.

i wouldnt waste a penny on courses for this, i never had one nor me parents/grandparents etc, its just common sense and decency and i think the answer lies in the law/values n human rights laws etc, get the basics right n only then can things begin to get better.

[BOB]

Any One Found Selling Guns Should Be Jailed For Life Put Them On A Island Off The Scotish Coast Along With The Drug Dealers

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by BOB

Any One Found Selling Guns Should Be Jailed For Life Put Them On A Island Off The Scotish Coast Along With The Drug Dealers

Can't see the SNP allowing that to happen..............Siberia???

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

Can't see the SNP allowing that to happen..............Siberia???

Quite right. As I suggested in another thread, we should arrange contracts with third world countries to build high security penal colonies to hold violent criminals and thugs.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by cashman

most are still ok i think, its the lack of respect n violence that has increased, by the wrong uns making society more fearful.

I'm not sure that I agree with that. I think from the outside it looks like that but is it not the case that in the 60s there were gangs and bad 'uns just the same as now. Perhaps, the only difference now is that people fight back more, making the gangs and bad 'uns more aggressive. In the glorious olden days (I am being ironic there btw) the police were less likely to intervene with serious gangs - yes, they would have clipped the odd kid around the ear if they stepped out of line, but they were most likely drinking partners with the really bad ones. If you look at families like the Krays (London, not Liverpool but I'm sure Liverpool had its equivalent), the Krays were the law!

So perhaps, turning this argument on its head (and playing devils advocate) the fault is not in the increase in violence but in the increase in policing violence which in turn has allowed smaller gangs to become braver.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Gayle

I'm not sure that I agree with that. I think from the outside it looks like that but is it not the case that in the 60s there were gangs and bad 'uns just the same as now. Perhaps, the only difference now is that people fight back more, making the gangs and bad 'uns more aggressive. In the glorious olden days (I am being ironic there btw) the police were less likely to intervene with serious gangs - yes, they would have clipped the odd kid around the ear if they stepped out of line, but they were most likely drinking partners with the really bad ones. If you look at families like the Krays (London, not Liverpool but I'm sure Liverpool had its equivalent), the Krays were the law!

So perhaps, turning this argument on its head (and playing devils advocate) the fault is not in the increase in violence but in the increase in policing violence which in turn has allowed smaller gangs to become braver.

of course there were gangs in the 60s, but was not aware we were talking about organised crime "Krays" and the like, the gangs of teds n the like used to have punch ups, the differance is = with other teds,not kids,n pensioners n the like,something that even evil gits like the Krays would not allow in Bethnal Green,i dont think policing violence will reduce it,you have got to attack the root cause. i would disagree that people fight back more now than way back, in fact i would think Less, cos stabbing,shooting etc could be the end result.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by cashman

of course there were gangs in the 60s, but was not aware we were talking about organised crime "Krays" and the like, the gangs of teds n the like used to have punch ups, the differance is = with other teds,not kids,n pensioners n the like,something that even evil gits like the Krays would not allow in Bethnal Green,

Which was sort of my point - the big gang leaders wouldn't allow anyone to step out of line, so they policed the minor thugs and young idiots.

Originally Posted by cashman

i dont think policing violence will reduce it,you have got to attack the root cause. i would disagree that people fight back more now than way back, in fact i would think Less, cos stabbing,shooting etc could be the end result.

The police got to the route cause and took away the gang leaders and you've got a free for all.

[Wynonie Harris]

Yes, there was violence in the 60's, but not of the magnitude and severity that occurs today. Crimes of violence have risen and are continuing to rise. Knives and guns seem to be commonplace. You would see a punch-up on the dancefloor of the Con or on the bus station, but you would not hear of a man being kicked to death simply for remonstrating with youths who had vandalised his car.

The reason, it seems to me, is that you have a large number of people who have been allowed to do exactly what they like both in the home and at school (and I don't blame teachers for the latter - their hands seem to be tied now). Consequently, when somebody tries to stop them doing what they want, they react with the unreasoning fury of a spoilt infant - but unfortunately in the body of a grown adult with terrible consequences for those who cross their path.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Gayle

Which was sort of my point - the big gang leaders wouldn't allow anyone to step out of line, so they policed the minor thugs and young idiots.

agreed, even now though if the resorces were available it would not make much of a differance,cos the planks in society have given this scum too many rights,or get out of jail free cards.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Yes, there was violence in the 60's, but not of the magnitude and severity that occurs today. Crimes of violence have risen and are continuing to rise. Knives and guns seem to be commonplace. You would see a punch-up on the dancefloor of the Con or on the bus station, but you would not hear of a man being kicked to death simply for remonstrating with youths who had vandalised his car.

The reason, it seems to me, is that you have a large number of people who have been allowed to do exactly what they like both in the home and at school (and I don't blame teachers for the latter - their hands seem to be tied now). Consequently, when somebody tries to stop them doing what they want, they react with the unreasoning fury of a spoilt infant - but unfortunately in the body of a grown adult with terrible consequences for those who cross their path.

I'm not disagreeing with you and I think that discipline is a factor at home and at school. But I'm also trying to look at this from a different angle.

When I was growing up, I didn't live in a particularly rough area but there was one family that you didn't mess with on the estate. They ruled the estate by policing it and in a way, defending it. If a young kid stepped out of line they got a clip round the ear. But if someone from outside the estate came in and tried to cause trouble they sent them packing. The estate was actually a quiet, very peaceful estate because of it.

Now, increase that to the scale of large estates and inner cities and you have a 'gang/family' there that everyone was scared of and no one stepped out of line. Ironically, as the Police remove the self regulating gang/family then more thugs started to have a go.

So what has actually happened is that the Police have removed the self regulating force that existed on these estates, thus allowing violence to increase. They have actually removed the top of the pyramid but not got to the bottom of it.

[Wynonie Harris]

Gayle, I didn't have you down as the Barbara Windsor type! "They wuz real gents, wuz Ronnie and Reggie. The streets wuz safe when they wuz around."

Seriously, I can see that it may well be a contributory factor. If you read any books about the Krays, you'll see that many older East Enders say the same. As far as I'm concerned, we should lock up the thugs where they can do no harm for long periods of time, but what worries me is, will others spring up to take their place?

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Gayle, I didn't have you down as the Barbara Windsor type! "They wuz real gents, wuz Ronnie and Reggie. The streets wuz safe when they wuz around."

Seriously, I can see that it may well be a contributory factor. If you read any books about the Krays, you'll see that many older East Enders say the same. As far as I'm concerned, we should lock up the thugs where they can do no harm for long periods of time, but what worries me is, will others spring up to take their place?

I think that's precisely what has happened, although not one ruling factor has taken their place but many wanna bees.