Cheap Flights, slightly related to the chicken debate

[Boeing Guy]

Okay so maybe this is related to the chicken debate, after all it is consumerism.
So next time you get a flight with a certain Irish airline for one pound bear this in mind.....
The First Officer, he will have paid between £40,000 and £80,000 to get his commercial pilots license, then he will have paid this company £50 for them to look at his CV. If he get's to the next stage he is charged £300 for interview and Simulator Check. If he passes, he is offered a Type Rating Course on the Boeing 737, so he pays £20,000 and off he goes to do this, none of his training costs includes living expenses. If he passes and some don't, they lose all that money they have paid this Airline, He is then offered Line Training, Now he gets paid, 1200 Euro's per month.
After 6 months of this he is offered a contract as a contract pilot the pay is 60 Euros per hour.
You are self employed and therefore are responsible for your own tax. However there are some conditions, you pay 5 Euros per hour for your continuing training costs, (Two sim checks per year, and some classroom), 75 Euro's per month for car parking. You are paid for scheduled hours as per the timetable, that's why these guys are early at times. With this in mind that means you are NOT paid for the 1.30 before departure when you report to the crew room to do the paperwork, nor are you paid during your turn around and finally when you return to base you have yet more paperwork and no pay for that. The cost for your uniform is also taken out of your pay packet.
Now it is recommended that when you fly you should have water to rehydrate and this airline is one of the very few who refuses to give it's pilots water, so you have a choice, either pay on the airplane through the nose, or pay on the airside of the airport, through the nose, because crew are subject to the same restrictions as passengers.
SO you might think that the Captain is better off, well he is better paid, but subject to exactly the same as a First Officer in fact he could have started as a FO a few years ago.
So why work for them, well the Aviation industry is a very hard industry to get into and lots of wanabee's will do anything to get a job. The cabin crew also have to pay for everything as well, I am not sure of the cost's involved.
Don't get me wrong, this airline complies with all current legistlation and is running a safe operation.
I would not work or fly with them though.
But the poor Passenger, they have to buy and drink on board and a sandwich, pay for any luggage and pay for checking in at the airport. The Airport they arrive at is miles from anywhere and when they complain they get nowhere.
SO why do we fly with them, maybe it is because it is cheap and we like things that are cheap, the quality may not be as good, but who gives a
st, I'm alright mate, so sod everyone else.

And you know the funny thing is this, there is an Airline in the USA that started this LO cost flying off in the early 70's (sorry it was not Sir Freddy Laker), they are called Southwest, staff are looked after and so are the passengers and they are the standard for low cost aviation the world over.
Right rant over and thanks for putting up with me for so long, I'm off to get a cup off coffee.

[lancsdave]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

But the poor Passenger, they have to buy and drink on board and a sandwich, pay for any luggage and pay for checking in at the airport. The Airport they arrive at is miles from anywhere and when they complain they get nowhere.

The information is available to anyone who books a Ryanair flight, if people are daft enough not to check then it's their problem.

[MargaretR]

I have never flown on a cheapo airline.
The charter flight airlines are bad enough-
crammed like sardines, herded like cattle, screaming kids

I have been on BA scheduled flights and the difference is remarkable.

I think that a comfortable relaxed journey is a vital part of ensuring a carefree holiday.

It all boils down to "you get what you pay for"
If I can't afford the better option I would rather not go

[cashman]

gotta say Boeing Guy,we flew with southwest in 2002, from Nashville to New Orleans, had no idea it was a cheapo airline. you certainly would not know from the standard of things. that being the case the UK cheapos have much to learn from these guys.

[lancsdave]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

It all boils down to "you get what you pay for"

Couldn't agree more, and also add make sure you know what you are buying. Too many people complain about the budget airlines but it's only because they can't be bothered reading the terms and conditions. Ryanair are very good at marketing and making you think you are getting a bargain, hence they get the most complaints when things don't turn out right. In actual fact if you do your homework properly you can get scheduled flights by the big names cheaper than the budget flights in some cases.

As for being cramped etc then I haven't found a great deal of difference between charter flights and budget flights. Strangely enough one of the worst companies I have flown with are American Airlines, and they are definately no budget flight company

[claytonender]

I have been on both Easyjet and Ryanair.

We actually had more room on both airlines, as there were spare seats.

I was quite aware of having to pay for luggage and checkin with Ryanair.

As far the airport being miles from anywhere, this was not the case witht he return flight we took with Ryanair. We were going on holiday to Salou, the flight took us into Reus airport, which is the same airport all the holiday companies (such as Airtours and Thomson) fly into, and is only 7 miles from Salou.

I also booked my apartment independently (with a company called Travel Republic, who feature all the hotels and aprtments the tour operators go to, as well as lots more). As Rynair flew to Reus everyday of the week, we could tailor the holiday exactly to how requirements. The totla cost of our 11 night holiday for 2 people (flight + accomodation) was £351.00 + the cost of a taxi from Reus airport to Salou (and return) was about 25 euros each way (no waiting on a coach for everyone to get through baggage reclaim and no going all round the houses dropping people off). A similiar package with Thomson was working out at about £750.00 for 2 people (we went in September 2006).

The flight times were also much more convenient than if we had booked a package holiday with Thomson, as they flew out late at night rather than in the morning. Also Thomson charge extra for inflight meals.

I don't dispute what you say about the rates Ryanair pay their staff, but cutomers are aware of all the 'extras' they might have to pay before they complete their booking.

I agree about Lancsdave about the differernce between charter and scheduled being cramped etc. When I flew to America I did research about seat pitches and found that BMI had one of the longest seat pitches, so I booked with them, even though they were not the cheapest fare available.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

I have never flown on a cheapo airline.
The charter flight airlines are bad enough-
crammed like sardines, herded like cattle, screaming kids

It all boils down to "you get what you pay for"
If I can't afford the better option I would rather not go

that is clearly not the case with Southwest airlines, also i have always used Monarch Scheduled to fly to Malaga,last year i got a great deal with BMI Baby one of the supposed cheapos, expected the worst,but was prepared to put up with it for 2 1/2 hrs, to my amazement i found i had an extra couple of inches between seats, being a daddy-long- legs that is a big thing to me,have used em 3 times since. normally would agree with yer comment,but in these instances clearly not the case.

[shillelagh]

Have flown with both British Airways and Easyjet. The only difference was Easyjet you have to pay for your drinks - british airways i got drunk on for free!!! Both flying into Belfast - one was the city airport (british airways) aldergrove was easyjet - but british airways fly to aldergrove as well.

[blazey]

I have only flown once (well twice, there and back) and I was 12, can't remember who the company was who we flew with.

Probably wont be flying abroad anytime soon as I can't be bothered to pay so much money for a passport.

To put it simply, I have never had to worry about cheap flights and how they are made so cheap. I dont know how much fuel costs of any sort, and so I dont really know how much it SHOULD cost to fly somewhere. I pretty much have no knowledge at all to comment on this issue, but I just thought I'd point out how flights don't have importance to as many people as food, and the issues aren't as blatantly clear as the ones associated with food.

[derekgas]

If I may digress slightly to give another example, In my occupation, costs vary immensely, British gas are the dearest company around, where I work are a mid priced company, and there are obviously a few cheap companies about, overheads are the main difference, starting at the lowest priced, a one man band working from home, they are not usually accredited by any boiler or fire manufacturer, concentrate on being cheapest, so you would likely get the cheapest appliance available, because they are cheap, a service for example would consist of a flue and burner check and hoovering out the appliance, the other downside is, when they move house, they usually change the phone number, so getting them back is a problem, in the mid range, there is usually at least an office, or showroom involved, this is an investment and usually means there is no intention to flit around properties, and the phone number stays, quite often there will be some accreditation from at least one manufacturer, and if so, standards have to be higher to keep that accreditation, when we service, it is the old way, strip appliances down, and complete a safety report, and bring the appliance to as near new condition as possible, including cleaning any decorative effects, (coals, brassware etc), then the rip offs, who proport to be mid range, what they actually do is service as the cheaper guys, and charge more than the mid range guys, will buy the cheapest equipment and make a packet, (some of these do it for 2 or 3 years then emmigrate on the proceeds), then the big boys, who have shareholders, the annual service has been reclassified as an 'annual inspection', they charge twice as much as the cheap guys, and do the absolute minimum for it, also, with service contracts (breakdown cover), they include an annual inspection, only you find that you have to phone THEM to get them out, they also install the cheapest boilers available to them at the time, and contract much of the work out. There is much more than this, but the point is, you don't always get what you pay for, sometimes (more often than most would realise), you pay for what they make you THINK you are getting, and the costs to them are offset by the quality to you. Out of all the heating, gas, and plumbing engineers in Hyndburn, I would only allow a small handful into my house, and 3 of them work alongside me.

[MargaretR]

When you highlighted poor working terms for pilots, there was one that you missed.

Toxic airlines: Is your plane trip poisoning you? | the Daily Mail

Written by a former pilot -retired early with health problems

Passengers are affected too - so worth a read by all of us.

[Boeing Guy]

Sorry about that, yes I forgot the problem with the 757 and BAE 146

[Margaret Pilkington]

I have never flown budget airlines in this country....though I did fly Virgin Blue in Oz......they weren't particularly cheap either......but if you wanted food and drink it was paid for aboard. I didn't mind that too much....and the legroom was better than most of the package tour flights I have been on.

[lettie]

Many airlines and holiday companies are actually aspiring to be budget carriers IMO. Me and Sparks have flown with Thompson and Thomas Cook in the last couple of years and have found them to be scraping the bottom of the barrell. There's no way I would pay extra for a meal on the plane, who's going to pay for that rubbish???
What bugged me though is that at check in there were notices that said that if you pay an extra £30 or so, you could have extra legroom seats. These extra legroom seats include the emergency exit seats. We had a bit of a dispute in Tenerife with the check in clerk for Thomas Cook. We are both young, fit and able to assist other people in an emergency but we would not pay for the extra legroom so the seats were payed for and taken by elderly more infirm people, one of whom slept from the minute we took off to the minute we landed. It seems that the aspiration to be a budget airline could potentially compromise the safety of passengers. Emergency exit seats should be given to people who are fit enough to help others and not sold to the highest bidder.

[cashman]

good point about the exit seats lettie.