Closer military ties with France is this right for our armed forces?

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by JCB

And in the 1975 UK referendum 67% of the voters voted to stay in the EEC .

I voted to come out .

In 1975 the EEC, as it was then, was sold to us as a grouping of states co-operating for trading purposes. The present-day EU is a completely different animal - a nascent state in its own right now rapidly assembling its own laws, common borders and even a diplomatic organisation with its own ambassador.

[cashman]

On reflection it may be a good idea, better than having close military ties wi America, at least the French declared War on Germany in WW2, whereas the yanks signed a treaty wi Hitler to stay out of hostilities. some special relationship.

[JCB]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

In 1975 the EEC, as it was then, was sold to us as a grouping of states co-operating for trading purposes. The present-day EU is a completely different animal - a nascent state in its own right now rapidly assembling its own laws, common borders and even a diplomatic organisation with its own ambassador.

True much has changed since 1975 , but there is also much confusion . The title of this thread is one example . The closer military ties with France have nothing to do with the European Union .

Another source of confusion is the Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights . These are not part of the European Union .

Many associate anything European with the European Union .

As I have already said I voted in 1975 to leave the EEC .
If there was a referendum tomorrow about whether we should stay in the European Union , I would not be as clear in my mind as I was in 1975 . I have yet to see a viable alternative to our membership of the EU .

Most of the debate is about single issues about which people are concerned . It's easy to pick on one topic to knock the EU , and sometimes to pick on one topic that has nothing to do with the EU to knock the EU .

There has been no serious debate about membership , or about what leaving the EU would entail .

Reading between the lines , you will probably see that my opinion towards the EEC , now the EU , has mellowed since our referendum .

[cashman]

Originally Posted by JCB

True much has changed since 1975 , but there is also much confusion . The title of this thread is one example . The closer military ties with France have nothing to do with the European Union .

Another source of confusion is the Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights . These are not part of the European Union .

Many associate anything European with the European Union .

As I have already said I voted in 1975 to leave the EEC .
If there was a referendum tomorrow about whether we should stay in the European Union , I would not be as clear in my mind as I was in 1975 . I have yet to see a viable alternative to our membership of the EU .

Most of the debate is about single issues about which people are concerned . It's easy to pick on one topic to knock the EU , and sometimes to pick on one topic that has nothing to do with the EU to knock the EU .

There has been no serious debate about membership , or about what leaving the EU would entail .

Reading between the lines , you will probably see that my opinion towards the EEC , now the EU , has mellowed since our referendum .

ok JCB, if the European Court Of Human Rights are not part of the E.U. aint doubting ya just asking, why the hell do we accept everything "Lock,Stock,n Barrel" that they direct? beats me.

[Wynonie Harris]

Quite right, JCB, the military treaty with France has nothing to do officially with the EU. However, there's a lingering suspicion that this is just one more step in a general dilution of sovereignty that seems to be an on-going process amongst EU states.

As for it being easy to pick one topic to knock the EU on, it's actually easy to pick a whole range of topics - the fact that we pay more in to the EU than we get out of it, the imposition of hundreds of new laws and restrictions that we haven't actually asked for, the totally skewed and unfair (both to ourselves and others) immigration system whereby a Canadian brain surgeon would have to jump through hoops to live here, but a Romanian beggar could walk straight in and start panhandling on the streets, the fact that while we are seeing cuts in our sevices, we will be paying more to the EU budget...I could go on.

As for your "mellowing" towards the EU, I would say most people have gone the other way. But who knows?...I could be wrong. However, as a true believer in democracy, I would be quite happy to accept the results of a referendum on membership. Unfortunately, Cameron, Milliband and Clegg don't believe in democracy, except when it's going their way, and as they're frightened of the hoi polloi not giving the "correct" answer, a referendum is still a long way away!

[Mancie]

The reality is that to leave the EU is not an option....not for decades, and even if a party such as UKIP gained power they would likely change thier minds once elected.. like it hate it we are in this Union and to my mind the only way to keep our own laws/policies is to get involved and shove our weight around.. instead of sniping from the sidelines.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by Mancie

The reality is that to leave the EU is not an option....not for decades, and even if a party such as UKIP gained power they would likely change thier minds once elected.. like it hate it we are in this Union and to my mind the only way to keep our own laws/policies is to get involved and shove our weight around.. instead of sniping from the sidelines.

How do we know that it's not an option? Nobody's ever tried. Don't forget that the EU is in a state of flux and uncertainty at the moment with major players starting to question the Lisbon Treaty and countries like Turkey and Albania due to join, with all the attendant problems that'll bring. All options are on the table!

However, I agree with you that while we're in, we should start "shoving our weight around". I'll say it again, although you and a lot of others won't like it - Thatcher played a blinder by extracting our rebate from the EU by the simple expedient of refusing to pay our contribution otherwise. If only Cameron had the bottle to pull strokes like that!

[JCB]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

However, I agree with you that while we're in, we should start "shoving our weight around". I'll say it again, although you and a lot of others won't like it - Thatcher played a blinder by extracting our rebate from the EU by the simple expedient of refusing to pay our contribution otherwise. If only Cameron had the bottle to pull strokes like that!

I agree with much of what you and Mancie are saying .
We managed to stay out of the Eurozone .
We managed to get our rebate from the EU .
We managed to get opt-outs from certain parts of the Maastricht Treaty .

Our UK governments need to play the role of a British De Gaulle . I am sure many other member states would be on our side .

I can see no alternative to being in the EU , but that does not stop our elected representatives from being a bloody nuisance when it is in our national interest and hopefully in the national interest of many of the other members .

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by JCB

but that does not stop our elected representatives from being a bloody nuisance when it is in our national interest and hopefully in the national interest of many of the other members .

Would agree with you on that one, JCB. Sadly, Cameron hasn't got the bottle to do it!

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Would agree with you on that one, JCB. Sadly, Cameron hasn't got the bottle to do it!

agree, but can't think of anyone at the forefront of any party who has?

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by cashman

agree, but can't think of anyone at the forefront of any party who has?

Nope, me neither.

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Nope, me neither.

Well we got rid of one rabid Europhile who then went and got a top job with them.
Would Red Ed stand uo to them like Maggie did?

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates

Well we got rid of one rabid Europhile who then went and got a top job with them.
Would Red Ed stand uo to them like Maggie did?

Questions already been answered yeh stirring git.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cashman

Questions already been answered yeh stirring git.

Barry, a stirring git, never, he's a perfect gentleman!!!!!!! except when he's on about football, then he is a stirring git

[Eric]

Canada, of course, is not a member of the EU. NAFTA is bad enough, but the bright side is that we are saddled with only one basket case economy: the US. And membership of NAFTA doesn't compromise our sovereignty. This may seem like a wander; but it is addressing, though obliquely, the point under discussion. I'm really surprised at the sense of the UK's seeming powerlessness, and the reflection of this in the attitudes of voters (that's you guys) I think it's time that your govt. was forced into doing something that the people want; something that would be good for the national (oops, that's politically incorrect) interest. I was reading in the local rag this morning that our Federal Government ... tories, free enterprisers, ant-protectionist ... has spiked a $39 billion bid from Australian mining giant BHP Billiton for Saskatchewan's Potash Corporation. Maybe you don't know all that much about potash, unless you are a farmer or avid gardener; but 53% of the world's known reserves are in Saskatchewan. Why would a free-enterprise, right-wing govt. reverse its decision to allow the sale? Answer is simple: the Canadian people, particularly those in Saskatchewan didn't want this immensely valuable Canadian resource to be owned by a foreign company. Of the 14 federal seats in Sask. (population less than a million), 13 are held by the tories. And the message was clear: ditch the deal or else risk losing those seats. And the tories are governing with a minority: so they listen. I think the point to this wander is that, on any major issue, the people can, or should be able to pressure the govt. to act as they wish them to. I realise you guys don't have a minority govt., but a coalition is close; so maybe it's time to cut out the fatalistic, "what can we do" attitude to things which affect the sovereignty and independece of Great Britain, and take a lead from the French people by letting the government know, in no uncertain terms, how the people feel.