Council Overspend

[BERNADETTE]

Originally Posted by cashman

not suprised yer confused mate Conservatives are in power, Labour are opposition in hyndburn, Cyfr is trying to make the case that those in power are only as much too blame as the opposition, no wonder yer confused.

If Labour had been in power this thread would have been a damn sight longer you can bet

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE

If Labour had been in power this thread would have been a damn sight longer you can bet

Ouch Berny... That's brave....PB would have been drowned for less than that?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by garinda

Hats off to them.

They did incredibly well to keep this shocker underwraps until after the recent elections.

Thats twice since your little chat with Peter in the park on Sunday that you have said good things about Him and the Tories.

What was it he said to you that is turning you into a Tory supporter?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Gayle

It doesn't help Labour's case though that they didn't submit a budget this year so they don't really have much of an argument.

Usually, they submit an alternative budget, that way when there is an overspend, they can point to their own and say 'well we would have spent the money this way'!

That is an interesting point. Maybe Graham will explain why they did this. Maybe it is all part of his Labour master plan.

[Bonnyboy]

Remember it’s only a projected over spend. It may not be that bad, then again, it could get a whole lot worse…depends whether yer glass is half full or half empty at the min.
Personally £2.3 million projected over spend in a little over two months into the financial year…me glass looks half empty

[Neil]

Anyone know what the Councils budget is for the year so we can see it as a percentage. It may only be a little overspeed or could be massive.

[BERNADETTE]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

Ouch Berny... That's brave....PB would have been drowned for less than that?

Just stating the obvious, nothing brave about it

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by Neil

Anyone know what the Councils budget is for the year so we can see it as a percentage. It may only be a little over speed or could be massive.

Speed is that not a banned substance?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Neil

Thats twice since your little chat with Peter in the park on Sunday that you have said good things about Him and the Tories.

What was it he said to you that is turning you into a Tory supporter?

I think it's the fifth nice thing I've said this year.

I like to keep a tally, for when that old chesnut is thrown at me, about being anti-Tory.

That's the beauty of being non-partisan.

I'm not tied to any party pap.

I can say it how it is.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

Speed is that not a banned substance?

Nope it is a typo

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Bonnyboy

Remember it’s only a projected over spend. It may not be that bad, then again, it could get a whole lot worse…depends whether yer glass is half full or half empty at the min.
Personally £2.3 million projected over spend in a little over two months into the financial year…me glass looks half empty

Let's hope it's not like a 'projected' quote when you get the builders in, or take your car to the garage, and it actually ends up costing double the price that was first mooted.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by Neil

Nope it is a typo

Know that...but according to some I'm a rebel so might as well keep it up.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by andrewb

All I can say is what would the overspend be if we had voted for Labour and had an unfunded 3% tax cut in addition!

The Revenue Budget first. We did what every Council has done since about 1997 - put an amendment in that must be ratified as acceptable by the Chief Finance Officer. No-one has ever put in an alternate budget. Your getting muddled and totally confused in what you're saying.

This overspend is on the Capital Budget, not the Revenue Budget. I flagged it up 5 years ago and there are plenty of posts on here where I have warned about our reliance on bank borrowing and outstanding loans. It was and is a time bomb due to mismanagement. The £7.4 million from Government has just hidden the problem away for three years. The £7.4m HiP money should have been spent on Housing outside the ELEVATE area (which Pendle St isn't), ie The big losers are Rishton and Great Harwood.

Originally Posted by Bonnyboy

I thought the Audit Commission recently said our Council was top notch

Originally Posted by Gayle

Well they were classed as an 'excellent' council last year - if there is any budget mismanagement it has happened this financial year, so the two things aren't connected.

In 2004 they said we were very good and then someone discovered a '£2m black hole' and we were downgraded. (Someone sense deja-vu!). The Auditors came in for a week, travel around on buses where the Council wants them to go, interview a few important Council officials about our ambitions. This year they were put up the Dunkenhalgh and finished off with voulevants and expensive champagne. I was barred from being interviewed.

Originally Posted by jaysay

A the budget meeting in Feb the Tories put their budget forward as did the independent councillors, but cllr Jones sat on his hands, seems his 40 point plan could not be costed.

Originally Posted by Gayle

It doesn't help Labour's case though that they didn't submit a budget this year so they don't really have much of an argument.Usually, they submit an alternative budget, that way when there is an overspend, they can point to their own and say 'well we would have spent the money this way'!

Peter Britcliffe has been very successful at getting this false message out and we have been poor at telling the truth. Oppositions have never put an alternate budget but proposed some amendments. Peter brags abut his being done on a fag packet. During the 90's there was a period when the Conservatives offered no amendments when rate capping was at it worst and Labour in control were left having as the only party announcing any cuts.

This year as traditional, we put forward an amendment of 3% less Council Tax (£150k) as we had received 450k windfall final payment from the transfer of Council Houses and we were putting into reserves ongoing savings of £450k way above national guidelines on reserves.

Every year Councils alter their budgets as the year goes along. I wanted to avoid 2 minute petty arguments and wreckless amendments that result in £50,000 getting spent on the hoof. That's sensible, we're being sensible.

Originally Posted by jaysay

This seems rather strang to me, prior to the budget meeting in Feb Cllr Jones said on here and in the media that he had a 40 point plan for Hyndburn.

The Council has 4 Accounts, Revenue, Capital, HRA and ring fenced external budgets. This year we received another Government windfall (Dec 2007), The Worklessness Fund, £4m. We had to come up with ideas in order to spend the money, hence the bulk of the 40 initiatives which needed a bit more input. Mr Farrer and Mr 'Andrew' try to convince people that the 40 uncosted initiatives are 'uncosted from the Revenue Account' without saying the words 'Revenue Account' because they know it's from the Worklessness Fund Budget which needs ideas and needs spending.

It's not one view against another. It's just plain nonsense and totally inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Lilly

As usual you have Peter Britcliffe saying one thing and Greg Pope and Graham Jones saying the opposite.....no wonder a lot of people don't know who to believe when they read the papers.

You are absolutely right. One of us is not telling the truth. You need to come to the meetings to work out which one it is for yourself Lilly.

Originally Posted by jaysay

He did say that he would have used balances to keep the council tax low, balances which didn't exist under the last Labour Admin.

We inherited a reserve of £200,000 IIRC. In the first month we were told the Tories had all but bankrupt the Council and that's why pretty much straigh away under Labour in 2002 you saw a massive voluntary redundancy programme. It was all reported and minuted. What was unknown in the advice was HOW MUCH WAS BEING OVERSPENT. Labour made one or two poor decisions that year that added to the problem. With the scrapping of CCT, outside contracts were let go as the works dept came inhouse. Secondly, whilst no-one has found a way that we could have reduced golden handshakes, i just feel that we might have been able. But workers were going out on strike over the Council anyway, it was just a nighmare. We inherited a ghost ship drifting in a force 10 storm with holes below the bow.

Originally Posted by jaysay

Its interesting to here that the Labour Party are saying that the Tories knew full well that he Government money wouldn't be forth coming this year, if that is the case, then Labour must have known too.

It's HiPs money and notification came in May. Budgets are set in Feb. As Cllr Pritchard said, you don;t go into ASDA knowing you have got £50 and spend £200 from expected future income that was unknown. That's bad management. For 5 years I have talked about this time bomb. I have led on trying to get somethinbg done. Unfortunatley people like you won't listen for political reasons and not for the best of residents... And it is going to get worse...

Originally Posted by jaysay

Knowing cllr Joneses track record if he or Mr Pope had know this why did they not scream it from the roof tops in the run up to the May elections, after alls said and done Labour didn't have much going far it at the last elections, and they would have milked this big time, the problem is Labour is a busted flush and are now clutching at straws.

Well that says a lot about Tory strategy. Turn everything to a political advantage every time. Like a senior Tory said last week. "Actually Labour and Tory get on quite well in Hyndburn when you look around elsewhere". It's just the media influencing people. I'll repeat again. Labour Councillors care and prefer an honest debate for the best of the Borough. I'll tale your comments as an endorsement of that.

Originally Posted by andrewb

I am not seeking to defend what has happened. I am however raising an important point.
We are told Britcliffe knew about the grant cuts, and yet Labour never bothered to inform us, them, and failed to set out another budget with the correct amendments.

See above. Mr 'Andrew' is quick to leave words, times, details out. The money came in May the budget was in February. For 5 years we have said borrowing is too high and the Capital programme is a black hole waiting to happen. The £7.4m HiPs money, which you were told about clearly by me and a Council Officer (so no excuses) has been misused and has covered up Council failure. To grasp the scale of the problem you have to add the £7.4m to the current £2.3m debt to see the scale of expenditure over 3 years and now HiPs has ended, how we can continue like this.

Originally Posted by andrewb

Two wrongs don't make a right, and the electorate have the legitimate right to condem this. The Labour party have no right to condem this,

Are you suggesting a one party state??????

Originally Posted by andrewb

we would be in the exact same, if not worse, situation, if they have been the elected the majority in May.

No we wouldn't. See previous posts. Labour left a £11m debt in 1999. By 2006 this was £26m under the Tories. For 5 years I have banged on about loans (and the fact we can't afford to borrow any more) including on here. The £7.4m HiPs simply bought time but it was meant to be speant on housing in Gt Harwood and Rishton but wasn't. Local people should pay more interest in what happens locally and they might lose out less. I feel sorry for them but what can I do? I only have one vote and it's not on Gt H or Rishton.

Originally Posted by Gayle

The Government did not pull the rug out. Yes, there was £700k that wasn't given this year - this was a one off payment that happened last year and last year alone - it should not have been assumed that they would get it again.Yet, even without that £700k - the government actually gave more to HBC this year than last!!!!!

This is spot on Gayle. Details are available under the Freedom of Information Act that verify this.

Originally Posted by andrewb

I don't think I am trying to deflect from it at all. I don't see why you're trying to tar me in this thread when I have already said it is wrong. I am not seeking to defend the Conservatives, the council, or anybody at all. All I said is the electorate have a legitimate reason to complain, not councillors who failed to put forward an alternative budget. Don't see nout wrong with that.

See above Andrew. There has never been an alternate budget, there are amendments. You're also confusing Capital and Revenue budgets.

A lot of the black hole has happened off balance sheet (concealed). We have uncovered the real Capital budget recently and the figures are not the ones presented to Council. They are out by £1million. Pendle Street is a political decision to win votes but at such a high cost it could only be viewed as 'corrupt'. As stated the £710,000 less HiPs is just a fraction of the £2.3m (Actually around £3.5m when you factor in Pendle St).

Those figures were downplayed too, till after the election and the votes had been counted. We said at Full Council all programmes would provisionally be accepted but an incoming Labour Council would review every one because we knew the pending black hole in finances.

Originally Posted by andrewb

Simply putting it how it is, we'd be in the same mess under the other lot because they didn't do anything different budget wise. Not that this makes it ok. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I don't think so because we have been warning about mismanagement for a while. Housing grants needed to be cut back in 2003 but poor management and political corruption allowed them to continue.

People are also confused because they have been told it is an excellent council and think Labour Councillors are stirring up trouble.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

Know that...but according to some I'm a rebel so might as well keep it up.

A rebel ehh, I have heard people refer to you as an ex-pat jambutty but never a rebel

[cashman]

Originally Posted by garinda

I think it's the fifth nice thing I've said this year.

I like to keep a tally, for when that old chesnut is thrown at me, about being anti-Tory.

That's the beauty of being non-partisan.

I'm not tied to any party pap.

I can say it how it is.

i aint tied either, just dont do nice.