Council Tax

[jaysay]

Can't resist, would Sir Graham like to put foward his costed alternative budget for 2008/9 please

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by claytonender

I appreciate what your main point is however, but why did the Telegraph say Hyndburn was the most expensive council in the country?

Since neither of us can find percentage increases in earnings in Hyndburn and are both just using specific examples I'll try another route.

I see this "8.1% of earnings" figure from the Telegraph brandished around by Graham Jones a lot. I decided to look into it.

The Telegraph are basing their calculations off average salary (£17,842) and band D properties. I don't feel this is at all fair because most properties are not band D in Hyndburn.

If you work it out off realistic figures it is like this:
Band A: 5.6%
Band B: 6.5%

Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

I don't know if you pay less for living on your own or if you receive benefits, but take into account that a lot of people don't live on their own, which means that figure is halved.

[andrewb]

I forgot to mention, those figures are the combined numbers so Hyndburn, County, Fire and Police. The majority of that (72%) is going to and set by Lancashire County Council. I don't think they consider peoples earnings per borough either, it's just a blanket percentage rise as far as I'm aware (although if this is wrong I'm sure somebody will point it out).

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

Since neither of us can find percentage increases in earnings in Hyndburn and are both just using specific examples I'll try another route.

I see this "8.1% of earnings" figure from the Telegraph brandished around by Graham Jones a lot. I decided to look into it.

The Telegraph are basing their calculations off average salary (£17,842) and band D properties. I don't feel this is at all fair because most properties are not band D in Hyndburn.

If you work it out off realistic figures it is like this:
Band A: 5.6%
Band B: 6.5%

Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

I don't know if you pay less for living on your own or if you receive benefits, but take into account that a lot of people don't live on their own, which means that figure is halved.

People living alone receive a 25% discount on their Council Tax.

[panther]

dont forget, that we wouldnt have council tax in the first place if Thatcher hadnt fetched out the poll tax....bloody tories fault

[blazey]

Originally Posted by panther

dont forget, that we wouldnt have council tax in the first place if Thatcher hadnt fetched out the poll tax....bloody tories fault

The Tories introduced it but Labour didn't take it away again did they?

You can't blame the Tories for something that Labour obviously support.

I can't comment on the figures put forward by either Cyfr or G jones as I have no idea, but what I can say is that Council Tax isn't that expensive with the direct debit way of paying, and obviously the money goes to a lot of different sources that we rely on.

Currently I am exempt from Council Tax, but I have had to look into the cost of it before for someone else, and it wasn't that much at all, at least for my current house, and I live in a reasonable sized 3 bedroom terraced house in a desirable location. From what I understand houses are banded depending on different criteria, I think my house was band D. It all seemed reasonable enough to me. Definitely not excessive anyway.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by blazey

Currently I am exempt from Council Tax, but I have had to look into the cost of it before for someone else, and it wasn't that much at all, at least for my current house, and I live in a reasonable sized 3 bedroom terraced house in a desirable location. From what I understand houses are banded depending on different criteria, I think my house was band D. It all seemed reasonable enough to me. Definitely not excessive anyway.

thats an easy thing to say when you aint paying sod all, and are not aware fully of decreased services for more money.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I see this "8.1% of earnings" figure from the Telegraph brandished around by Graham Jones a lot. I decided to look into it.

The Telegraph are basing their calculations off average salary (£17,842) and band D properties. I don't feel this is at all fair because most properties are not band D in Hyndburn.

If you work it out off realistic figures it is like this:
Band A: 5.6%
Band B: 6.5%

Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

First of all I typed the figures on my laptop elsewhere and did them off the top of my head. £3.5million was a typo/best guesstimate...

Here are the accurate figures

1999/2000 (The Tories starting piont)
Net Spend £9,255,000
Government Grant (-£0.58m HRA Benefits) £5,766,000
Council Tax/other income £3,489,000
Band D £151.53 (note this level was set by the outgoing Labour admin)
Outstanding Debts £11,785,000

2006
Outstanding Debts £26million
Council House sales net profit £12million
(note £1million borrowing = annual £100,000-£120,000 debt approx on old fixed rate loans)

2008
Total Spend £15,015,000
Government Grant £9,700,000 (-£1.1 for Concessionary fares +£450,000 Council Half Bus Pass Bus Scheme scrapped)
Government Grant Net £9,050,000
Council Tax/other income £5,315,000
Outstanding Debts £16,000,000 approx after Council House sales. Interest saving £950,000 on loans payed off.

Two notes
1. On Council Tax - other income - it's hard to judge as other income varies. Council House sales have claimed to around £.5million, losses on Leisure Services £250k+ each of the last two years. Pensions have gone up.

However in 2000 the Council raised £3,489,000. In 2008 it will raise £5,315,000. My calculator says +65.64%.

This is a rough analysis bacause of the variablessuch as debt repayments have gone up before the Tories sold off Council Housing and wiped £12million off and saved £1million a year in interest payments...

.....so let's look at what people actually pay on their bill....

2. Band D - Everyone uses Band D where all homes or no homes are Band D in an area. It is 9/9ths - the full Council Tax. Band C is 8/9ths etc... Its all proportionate except Bands F G H...
BAND PROPORTION
A 6/9
B 7/9
C 8/9
E 11/9
F 13/9
G 15/9
H 18/9

Hyndburn Council Tax

1999/2000 - Band D 151.53 (This was set by Labour in Feb to start April and the Tories took over May)
2000/2001 - Band D - £151.53 (Band C 3/9th) Band A £101.02
2001 - Band D - £163.50
2002 - Band D - £168.08
2003 - Band D - £174.63
2004 - Band D - £181.44
2005 - Band D - £190.28
(don't have to hand 2006/2007)
2008/2009 - Band D - £221.?? Band A is 147.50

(9 budgets, 1 Labour Budget / 8 Tory budgets - £151.53/£221 = +68.56%)
* Band A works out obviously at 68% as well

3. RPI v CPI???????? 37% or 16%
Norman Lamont (Tory) introduced CPI (known as RPIX) in 1992. My wage rise is set by it. Interest rates and Government/Business policy is set by it. Everybody uses it as it's more accurate. Only corrupt politicians misquote using RPI to 'look good'. IF RPI (37%) was used I would be around 15-20% poorer that 1997. Obviously completely untrue and why no-one uses RPI. It bears little relation to the economy or incomes and it was introduced by a Tory, so let's take the politics out of that one Cyfr.

4. Daily Telegraph Study
As above. Band A or Band D it is the same %. More importantly The Daily Telegraph used Band D (not that it mattered) for all authorities as this is the Full (9/9ths) Council Tax. Other authorities in Lancashire with identical County Council and Police charges are much cheaper.

5. Lets not forget the Conservatives have had to admit in their budgets they have had to cut services by 40% between 2004-2008 - Amazing give the income they have had.

And the Council was so bankrupt in 2003 Ian Ormerod had to dismiss/pay off all senior management and begin a huge redundancy programme so there was enough money to pay the remaining workers. So that's another round of cuts not mentioned... no wonder people get up and say .. enough is enough.. people need to know how bad it is...

6. The Council has been massively funded by Govt.

+70% in the basic grant.
+£12million SRB
+£3.4million ERDF
+£7million NRF
+£45million so far ELEVATE (The Council tax payer previously paid for Housing refurbishments)
+£2million Lancashire Childrens Fund
+£1.2million Home Office Funding
+£1million DEFRA
+£3.9million is (flogging off the family silver) asset sales given to the Council prior to the Tories (next to nothing left BTW)
+Lottery - Council given direct funding for anything from the Lottery £1.5million rising
+£7.5million (over last 3 years) Gordon Brown handout for ANY capital expenditure the Council wants (this is why we have stopped borrowing - heaven help us if a) GB pulls the plug on this b) DavidC pulls the plug on this
+£4million Bonus Revenue fund from Gordon Brown this year and the next 3.
+£22million LEGI Fund Bburn/Hyndburn/Burnley
+£0.6million per year Council House sales and rising

....there will be more.... this is what I can remember

Also the Council has benefited from
+£35million to do up Council Houses
+£18million 2x Health Centres (I put that because Conservatives at the last election claimed they built them)
+£1.2million Concessionary fares
+ The College.... and on and on.....

I hope you realise your own political bias when you say Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

You can see how much is being wasted. It is the most expensive Council in Britain and as Carlsberg would put it ... probably the worst...!

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I see this "8.1% of earnings" figure from the Telegraph brandished around by Graham Jones a lot. I decided to look into it.

The Telegraph are basing their calculations off average salary (£17,842) and band D properties. I don't feel this is at all fair because most properties are not band D in Hyndburn.

If you work it out off realistic figures it is like this:
Band A: 5.6%
Band B: 6.5%

Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

First of all I typed the figures on my laptop elsewhere and did them off the top of my head. £3.5million was a typo/best guesstimate...

Here are the accurate figures

1999
Net Spend £9,255,000
Government Grant (-£0.58m HRA Benefits) £5,766,000
Council Tax/other income £3,489,000
Band D £141.68
Outstanding Debts £11,785,000

2006
Outstanding Debts £26million
Council House sales net profit £12million
(note £1million borrowing = annual £100,000-£120,000 debt approx on old fixed rate loans)

2008
Total Spend £15,015,000
Government Grant £9,700,000 (-£1.1 for Concessionary fares +£450,000 Council Half Bus Pass Bus Scheme scrapped)
Government Grant Net £9,050,000
Council Tax/other income £5,315,000
Outstanding Debts £16,000,000 approx after Council House sales. Interest saving £950,000 on loans payed off.

Two notes
1. On Council Tax - other income - it's hard to judge as other income varies. Council House sales have claimed to around £.5million, losses on Leisure Services £250k+ each of the last two years. Pensions have gone up.

However in 2000 the Council raised £3,489,000. In 2008 it will raise £5,315,000. My calculator says +65.64%.

This is a rough analysis bacause of the variablessuch as debt repayments have gone up before the Tories sold off Council Housing and wiped £12million off and saved £1million a year in interest payments...

.....so let's look at what people actually pay on their bill....

2. Band D - Everyone uses Band D where all homes or no homes are Band D in an area. It is 9/9ths - the full Council Tax. Band C is 8/9ths etc... Its all proportionate except Bands F G H...
BAND PROPORTION
A 6/9
B 7/9
C 8/9
E 11/9
F 13/9
G 15/9
H 18/9

Hyndburn Council Tax

2000/2001 - Band D - £151.53 (Band C 3/9th) Band A £101.02
2001 - Band D - £163.50
2002 - Band D - £168.08
2003 - Band D - £174.63
2004 - Band D - £181.44
2005 - Band D - £190.28
(don't have to hand 2006/2007)
2008/2009 - Band D - £221.?? Band A is 147.50

(9 budgets, 1 Labour Budget / 8 Tory budgets - £151.53/£221 = +68.56%)
* Band A works out obviously at 68% as well

3. RPI v CPI???????? 37% or 16%
Norman Lamont (Tory) introduced CPI (known as RPIX) in 1992. My wage rise is set by it. Interest rates and Government/Business policy is set by it. Everybody uses it as it's more accurate. Only corrupt politicians misquote using RPI to 'look good'. IF RPI (37%) was used I would be around 15-20% poorer that 1997. Obviously completely untrue and why no-one uses RPI. It bears little relation to the economy or incomes and it was introduced by a Tory, so let's take the politics out of that one Cyfr.

4. Daily Telegraph Study
As above. Band A or Band D it is the same %. More importantly The Daily Telegraph used Band D (not that it mattered) for all authorities as this is the Full (9/9ths) Council Tax. Other authorities in Lancashire with identical County Council and Police charges are much cheaper.

5. Lets not forget the Conservatives have had to admit in their budgets they have had to cut services by 40% between 2004-2008 - Amazing give the income they have had.

And the Council was so bankrupt in 2003 Ian Ormerod had to dismiss/pay off all senior management and begin a huge redundancy programme so there was enough money to pay the remaining workers. So that's another round of cuts not mentioned... no wonder people get up and say .. enough is enough.. people need to know how bad it is...

6. The Council has been massively funded by Govt.

+70% in the basic grant.
+£12million SRB
+£3.4million ERDF
+£7million NRF
+£45million so far ELEVATE (The Council tax payer previously paid for Housing refurbishments)
+£2million Lancashire Childrens Fund
+£1.2million Home Office Funding
+£1million DEFRA
+£3.9million is (flogging off the family silver) asset sales given to the Council prior to the Tories (next to nothing left BTW)
+Lottery - Council given direct funding for anything from the Lottery £1.5million rising
+£7.5million (over last 3 years) Gordon Brown handout for ANY capital expenditure the Council wants (this is why we have stopped borrowing - heaven help us if a) GB pulls the plug on this b) DavidC pulls the plug on this
+£4million Bonus Revenue fund from Gordon Brown this year and the next 3.
+£22million LEGI Fund Bburn/Hyndburn/Burnley
+£0.6million per year Council House sales and rising

....there will be more.... this is what I can remember

Also the Council has benefited from
+£35million to do up Council Houses
+£18million 2x Health Centres (I put that because Conservatives at the last election claimed they built them)
+£1.2million Concessionary fares
+ The College.... and on and on.....

I hope you realise your own political bias when you say Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

You can see how much is being wasted. It is the most expensive Council in Britain and as Carlsberg would put it ... probably the worst...!

[g jones]

Correction:
The final Council Tax for 08/09
The Council’s Precept for 2008/09 is therefore an increase of 4.95% with a Band D equivalent rate for 2008/09 of £219.65.

My calculator says an increase from 2000 to 2008 of 68.99%

[pam1]

NURSES ARE NOT ON THE TOP END FOR PAY RAIRS. YES THEY ARE BADLY PADE, I WOULD LIKE U TO DO A NIGHT IN A HOSPITEL AND THEN TELL ME IF THEY DESERVE RAIRS

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by g jones

Here are the accurate figures

Two notes
However in 2000 the Council raised £3,489,000. In 2008 it will raise £5,315,000. My calculator says +65.64%.

.....so let's look at what people actually pay on their bill....

Hyndburn Council Tax

1999/2000 - Band D 151.53 (This was set by Labour in Feb to start April and the Tories took over May)
2008/2009 - Band D - £221.?? Band A is 147.50

(9 budgets, 1 Labour Budget / 8 Tory budgets - £151.53/£221 = +68.56%)
* Band A works out obviously at 68% as well

4. Daily Telegraph Study
As above. Band A or Band D it is the same %. More importantly The Daily Telegraph used Band D (not that it mattered) for all authorities as this is the Full (9/9ths) Council Tax. Other authorities in Lancashire with identical County Council and Police charges are much cheaper.

I hope you realise your own political bias when you say Which puts it much lower on the ladder in terms of being expensive.

You can see how much is being wasted. It is the most expensive Council in Britain and as Carlsberg would put it ... probably the worst...!

"Here are the accurate figures" Give me a break!

£3,489,000 to £5,315,000 is an increase of 52.34% not 68% like you claim.

Band D 1999: £151.53
Band D 2008: £219.65 (as noted by your correction)
This is a 45% increase not 68%

As a matter of fact it DOES matter which band you use to compare with salaries.

In Hyndburn 73.45% of people live in Band A(59.66%) and B(13.79%) compared with just 7.51% who live in band D. How is it fair to compare an average wage with a band that is out of the pay grade of most in the borough?

You are completely incompetent when it comes to monetary figures, no wonder you won't publish your budget. You are no way fit to run the council.

I'd advise you to get some new batteries for your calculator.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

"Here are the accurate figures" Give me a break!

£3,489,000 to £5,315,000 is an increase of 52.34% not 68% like you claim.

Band D 1999: £151.53
Band D 2008: £219.65 (as noted by your correction)
This is a 45% increase not 68%

As a matter of fact it DOES matter which band you use to compare with salaries.

In Hyndburn 73.45% of people live in Band A(59.66%) and B(13.79%) compared with just 7.51% who live in band D. How is it fair to compare an average wage with a band that is out of the pay grade of most in the borough?

You are completely incompetent when it comes to monetary figures, no wonder you won't publish your budget. You are no way fit to run the council.

I'd advise you to get some new batteries for your calculator.

Apology Cyfr. Your are right I am wrong. The figures are correct but my % are wrong, calculator went AWOL.

However Band A has nothing to do with it. It is just 6/9ths and no-one uses it as far as I am aware for recording purposes.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by g jones

Apology Cyfr. Your are right I am wrong. The figures are correct but my % are wrong, calculator went AWOL.

However Band A has nothing to do with it. It is just 6/9ths and no-one uses it as far as I am aware for recording purposes.

Thank-you for the apology but I doubt it really has anything to do with your calculator. Much more to do with the numbers you put in and how you put them in, because using your 'method' of percentages I also got your incorrect 68% figure using a working calculator.

Band A has a lot to do with it. If average earnings are £17k you can't compare that with band D property which is only 7.5% of Hyndburn. You have to compare it with what's happening in reality, in that most people will be paying band A and B rates not band D.

[g jones]

Don't slag me off for an error. I apologise to you and others. A lot of figures to digest. All I am after is the truth - I don't mislead people and I am not incompetent. It took a lot to pull this figures together as records are scattered all over. As you found when you pulled some dodgy figures out.

I appreciate you pointing out I had miscalculated the %. There was a couple more errors as well. Band C is 8/9th not 6/9ths as as correctly stated lower. Don't give me maths lessons when you state 6/9s is different to 9/9ths in % increase terms. Well the Council adds 4.95% it does so across the board.

Here are the accurate figures mark 2 (only % have changed)

1999
Net Spend £9,255,000
Government Grant (-£0.58m HRA Benefits) £5,766,000
Council Tax/other income £3,489,000
Band D £141.68
Outstanding Debts £11,785,000

2006
Outstanding Debts £26million
Council House sales net profit £12million
(note £1million borrowing = annual £100,000-£120,000 debt approx on old fixed rate loans at 10%+)

2008
Total Spend £15,015,000
Government Grant £9,700,000 (-£1.1 for Concessionary fares +£450,000 Council Half Bus Pass Bus Scheme scrapped)
Government Grant Net £9,050,000
Council Tax/other income £5,315,000
Outstanding Debts £16,000,000 approx after Council House sales. Interest saving £950,000 on loans payed off.

Notes
1. On Council Tax - other income - it's hard to judge as other income varies. Council House sales have claimed to around £.5million, losses on Leisure Services £250k+ each of the last two years. Pensions have gone up.

However in 2000 the Council raised £3,489,000. In 2008 it will raise £5,315,000 in local taxes. My calculator says +52.33% (not 65%).

This is a rough analysis because of the variables such as debt repayments have gone up before the Tories sold off Council Housing and wiped £12million off saving £1million a year in interest payments...

.... what's actually on their CT bill....

2. Band D - Everyone uses Band D where all homes or no homes are Band D in an area. It is 9/9ths - the full Council Tax. Band C is 8/9ths etc... Its all proportionate except Bands F G H...
BAND PROPORTION
A 6/9
B 7/9
C 8/9
E 11/9
F 13/9
G 15/9
H 18/9

Hyndburn Council Tax

2000/2001 - Band D - £151.53 (Band C 8/9th)
2001 - Band D - £163.50
2002 - Band D - £168.08
2003 - Band D - £174.63
2004 - Band D - £181.44
2005 - Band D - £190.28
(don't have to hand 2006/2007)
2008/2009 - Band D - £219.00 =

9 budgets, 1 Labour Budget / 8 Tory budgets - £151.53/£219.?? = +44.95%

3. RPI v CPI???????? 37% or 16%
Norman Lamont (Tory) introduced CPI (known as RPIX) in 1992. Interest rates and Government/Business policy is set by it. My wage rise is set by it.Everybody uses it as it's more accurate. Only corrupt politicians misquote using RPI to 'look good'. IF RPI (37%) was used I would be around 15-20% poorer that 1997. Obviously completely untrue and why no-one uses RPI.

4. Daily Telegraph Study
As above. Band A or Band D it is the same %. More importantly The Daily Telegraph used Band D (not that it mattered) for all authorities as this is the Full (9/9ths) Council Tax. Other authorities in Lancashire with identical County Council and Police charges are much cheaper.

5. The Conservatives have cut services by 40% between 2004-2008 -

And the Council was so bankrupt in 2003 Ian Ormerod had to dismiss/pay off all senior management and begin a huge redundancy programme so there was enough money to pay the remaining workers. Another lot of cuts not mentioned...

6. The Council has been massively funded by Govt.
This has paid for services the Council, was already or may have provided otherwise, therefore making savings

+70% in the basic grant.
+£12million SRB
+£3.4million ERDF
+£7million NRF
+£45million so far ELEVATE (The Council tax payer previously paid for Housing refurbishments)
+£2million Lancashire Childrens Fund
+£1.2million Home Office Funding
+£1million DEFRA
+£3.9million is (flogging off the family silver) asset sales given to the Council prior to the Tories (next to nothing left BTW)
+Lottery - Council given direct funding for anything from the Lottery £1.5million rising
+£7.5million (over last 3 years) Gordon Brown handout for ANY capital expenditure the Council wants (this is why we have stopped borrowing - heaven help us if a) GB pulls the plug on this b) DavidC pulls the plug on this
+£4million Bonus Revenue fund from Gordon Brown this year and the next 3.
+£22million LEGI Fund Bburn/Hyndburn/Burnley
+£0.6million per year Council House sales and rising

....there will be more.... this is what I can remember

Also the Council has benefited from
+£35million to do up Council Houses
+£18million 2x Health Centres (I put that because Conservatives at the last election claimed they built them)
+£1.2million Concessionary fares
+ The College.... and on and on.....

You can see how much is being wasted. It is the most expensive Council in Britain & probably the worst given it is so well funded...