Council Tax

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

It was an average figure of people working WITHIN Hyndburn not people who live in Hyndburn and work outside in say Manchester or whatever. I know some people will earn more than average, hence the name, but its Hyndburn I don't think theres hundreds of people earning £100,000+ skewing the statistics. The vast majority of people live in bands A&B, hence the average will be more representative of them, not the 11% of people that live in bands D, E, F, G & H.

As you will appreciate it is very hard to find these specific figures but I'm trying my hardest.

I can only get ward figures from 2001 and 2004. The 2004 figures include merged wards and things for all except Rishton, so I've used Rishton because the two data years are directly comparable.
In Rishton the average household income has increased 15% over 3 years which is 5% per year, so if that were to continue it would be 45% from 1999-2008, obviously the 45% figure is an estimate, but it's a fairy accurate one since it goes along with all the other statistics I've posted.

Here are the first 5 permanent full time jobs from fish4jobs within 10miles of Accrington:

Welder/Fitter: £20,000
Customer account manager: £18,000 + OTE £23k
Payroll Administrator: £15,000-£19,000
Skilled CNC Turner: £25,000-£27,000
Project Engineer: £22,000-£25,000

Of course you won't jump into high earning jobs right away, they need skills and experience, but that's just the way the world works.

Can you please inform us of what search criterion you put into fish4jobs to obtain the 5 permanent full time jobs you have given details of. They are all skilled jobs, notice no unskilled jobs, I looked on the Jobcentreplus website last night and the figures for jobs on there was much lower - even for skilled office jobs. There are many people in hyndburn working in low paid unskilled employment.

Also it is rather a sweeping statement that because Rishton average household income increased by 15% between 2001 and 2004 this trend must have continued. Whilst I appreciate that the changes in ward boundaries do effect the data for the other areas of Hyndburn, maybe Rishton is not a very good example to take as the area contains the households with the highest household incomes in Hyndburn. I know that there are also some very low incomes in Rishton as well.

My husband is a skilled tradesman, but his wages have only inceased from £5.20 an hour in April 2003 to £5.72 (which he is currently earning). Over 5 years this is an increase of £0.52 an hour or 10% - this equates to 2% per annum. I think that you will find that pay rises for people earning just above the minimum wage have only increased by about 2% to 3% per year.

Many employers (many of whom are large PLC's - who make very large profits for their shareholders) do not consider that they need to pay decent living wages beacuse the tax payer will subsidise them by payiing out (to those who meet the relevent conditions) Tax Credits.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by claytonender

Can you please inform us of what search criterion you put into fish4jobs to obtain the 5 permanent full time jobs you have given details of. They are all skilled jobs, notice no unskilled jobs, I looked on the Jobcentreplus website last night and the figures for jobs on there was much lower - even for skilled office jobs. There are many people in hyndburn working in low paid unskilled employment.

Also it is rather a sweeping statement that because Rishton average household income increased by 15% between 2001 and 2004 this trend must have continued. Whilst I appreciate that the changes in ward boundaries do effect the data for the other areas of Hyndburn, maybe Rishton is not a very good example to take as the area contains the households with the highest household incomes in Hyndburn. I know that there are also some very low incomes in Rishton as well.

My husband is a skilled tradesman, but his wages have only inceased from £5.20 an hour in April 2003 to £5.72 (which he is currently earning). Over 5 years this is an increase of £0.52 an hour or 10% - this equates to 2% per annum. I think that you will find that pay rises for people earning just above the minimum wage have only increased by about 2% to 3% per year.

Many employers (many of whom are large PLC's - who make very large profits for their shareholders) do not consider that they need to pay decent living wages beacuse the tax payer will subsidise them by payiing out (to those who meet the relevent conditions) Tax Credits.

I didn't put anything in the fish4jobs, simply within 10miles of Accrington, full time and permanent. You asked me to put some advertisements for jobs so I did, and some were much above the average for a man in Hyndburn.

Can I ask what sort of skilled work your husband does? I can't understand that he would only get 20p more than minimum wage for a skilled job with presumably experience?

In terms of employers, there's lots of jobs out there, if I felt I was being underpaid for what I was doing, I'd start to look elsewhere, that's the great thing about markets.

What alternatives are you suggesting in terms of council tax?

[yerself]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

What alternatives are you suggesting in terms of council tax?

Council Tax is levied on the capital value of a property as opposed to the Rates which were levied on the notional rental value of the property. The previous Rates system seemed to work well until Maggie dreamed up her 'Poll Tax' which was seen by more or less everyone (conservatives included), to be change for changes sake. Why not return to the old system?

[andrewb]

Then that's a matter of national politics which our local council can't alter isn't it? This whole thread was started to show people where their money was going in council tax and if they were better off compared with the rest of the country, which it seems they are. By better off I mean percentage wise, of course.

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I didn't put anything in the fish4jobs, simply within 10miles of Accrington, full time and permanent. You asked me to put some advertisements for jobs so I did, and some were much above the average for a man in Hyndburn.

Can I ask what sort of skilled work your husband does? I can't understand that he would only get 20p more than minimum wage for a skilled job with presumably experience?

In terms of employers, there's lots of jobs out there, if I felt I was being underpaid for what I was doing, I'd start to look elsewhere, that's the great thing about markets.

What alternatives are you suggesting in terms of council tax?

My husband is a joiner (with over 45 years experience) he currently works as a maintenance man in an retirement home.

Whilst I appreciate that in terms of emloyers there are 'allegedly' lots of jobs out there - just you try finding another job when you are over 60. Incidentally have you ever been employed (I am a long term job, not one which you had during holidays etc.)? Or, yet again, are you speaking from your 'vaste' knowlege of what you have read or been told by lecturers who have probably never doena proper days work in their lif.

Just done asearch on Job Cntre Plus for all jobs within 10miles of Accrington - these are the first 12 jobs it brought up.
The following results are close to your search criteria but are not an exact match
PCV COACH DRIVER
ACC/42419
ALTHAM, ACCRINGTON, LANCASHIRE
EXCEEDS NATIONAL MINIMUM WAGE
Quality Control Inspector
ACC/42425
ACCRINGTON, Lancashire
9.80 per hour
Quality Control Inspector
ACC/42424
ACCRINGTON, Lancashire
9.80 per hour
HEALTHCARE ASSISTANT
ACC/42406
ACCRINGTON, LANCASHIRE
£5.65 - £5.75 PER HOUR DEPENDING ON EXPERIENCE
SECURITY OFFICER
BUL/6182
BURY
£6.15 PER HOUR
BANK SUPPORT WORKERS
BCK/24232
BLACKBURN, LANCASHIRE
£60 - £80 PER DAY
PLASTIC INJECTION MOULDING SETTER
BUL/6085
BURNELY LANCASHIRE
£9.00 - £12.00 PER HOUR DEPENDING ON EXPERIENCE
PLASTIC INJECTION MOULDING SETTER
BUL/6062
BURNLEY, LANCASHIRE
NEGOTIABLE DEPENDENT ON EXPERIENCE
HGV CLASS 1 DRIVER
BUL/6064
BURNLEY, LANCASHIRE
£6.50 - £8.50 PER HOUR
DUTY NIGHT MANAGER
BCK/24098
BLACKBURN, LANCASHIRE
EXCEEDS NATIONAL MINIMUM WAGE
CUSTOMER SERVICES MANAGER 7296145
BCK/24175
BLACKBURN, LANCASHIRE
£25,000 - £30.000 PER ANNUM
MACHINE OPERATIVE - UNIT 14 SHIFTS
RAW/26228
HASLINGDEN, ROSSENDALE, LANCS
£273.35 PER WEEK

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by claytonender

My husband is a joiner (with over 45 years experience) he currently works as a maintenance man in an retirement home.

Whilst I appreciate that in terms of emloyers there are 'allegedly' lots of jobs out there - just you try finding another job when you are over 60. Incidentally have you ever been employed (I am a long term job, not one which you had during holidays etc.)? Or, yet again, are you speaking from your 'vaste' knowlege of what you have read or been told by lecturers who have probably never doena proper days work in their lif.

I understand it can be hard to find a new job because of the horrible agism that goes on. The only job I have had was part-time and lasted 6months because I went to University at that point. I was paid £4.90/hour (which was above minimum wage for my age). I worked between 16-40 hours a week depending on demand. I plan to get a job with the same company in September when I move house in Hull, making work much more accessible.

As far as lecturers are concerned, many of them have jobs before they become lecturers and I think being a lecturer is a perfectly legitimate days work. Just because it's not manual work doesn't mean its not proper work.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

As far as lecturers are concerned, many of them have jobs before they become lecturers and I think being a lecturer is a perfectly legitimate days work. Just because it's not manual work doesn't mean its not proper work.

No offence to any teachers, but there is that old saying, those that can do, and those that can't teach.

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

As far as lecturers are concerned, many of them have jobs before they become lecturers and I think being a lecturer is a perfectly legitimate days work. Just because it's not manual work doesn't mean its not proper work.

I was not impying that being a lecturer was not a legimate days work, but that for many people employed in the education sector, the only experience of life is in education, ie. they went straight form school to university to becoming a teacher or lecturer. In my opinion, it is only once you leave the cocooned life of education and get into the 'real' world of work (and by that that I mean both manual and white collar), that your true education begins.

About 20 years ago I went on a man management course, provided by my employer. I quickly sussed that the lecturer had all the statistics to hand about how low paid workers thought etc, but had never been in that situation himself. When I questioned his lectures and told it how it was trying to bring up a family on a low wage, he could only quote statistics to me. That is what I mean about working in the 'real' world, the university of life is a big educator - where you either quickly learn form your mistakes or go under.

This is why I am questioning your statistics etc.

Have you any comments to make on the jobs I found on Job Centre Plus?

[claytonender]

Originally Posted by garinda

No offence to any teachers, but there is that old saying, those that can do, and those that can't teach.

As usual you post exactly what I am thinking as well.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by claytonender

As usual you post exactly what I am thinking as well.

Lol, it does happen quite a lot.

Let's settle for great minds thinking alike, rather than fools never differing.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by claytonender

Have you any comments to make on the jobs I found on Job Centre Plus?

An awful lot of them fall in line with the average household income, even if only one person works full time and the other is part time. Household income has increased by 52.7% according to LCC, therefore showing that the 45% rise in council tax is lower than most peoples earnings increase.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by garinda

No offence to any teachers, but there is that old saying, those that can do, and those that can't teach.

And those that can't teach, teach others how to teach

[jaysay]

Still no word from Graham

[g jones]

Jaysay. The residents will be the first to know. That is because last year Conservative's took Labour Budget proposal's, put them on Conservative leaflets an put 'New ideas from your excellent Conservative Council'.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

My inflation figure was a national average and it is accurate. You can't just pick your own wage and say that it doesn't fit it hence my figures are wrong. Not even sure if that is your correct percentage, because on page 1 you said it was 18%

18% was a good guess. I asked payroll and updated the accurate figure to include this years settlement as well.

Originally Posted by Cyfr

1) When you say 'required' what is it required for? You say rainy day is money out of peoples pockets, Gordon Brown didn't do it and look where thats got us. You should save in the times of plenty like other big countries. It's irresponsible to not plan for the future.

Why are you such a Labour hater. That's all you seem to be.

I said what the private firm of auditors said. 5% (750k). Not political. You show how difficult it is for you to understand the Council when you do not understand local economics, disproportionate taxation, The Council's ability to raise revenue annually as required, or borrow at a low rate for the short term in a crises.

And what sort of 'rainy day' do you think there will be that will require £1million that HAS TO BE IN THE BANK?????????

Originally Posted by Cyfr

2) So you don't think an opposition should propose a budget? Three independents managed to produce a budget and I presume they're not allowed to use the full time officers either. In fact some of the independents ideas were included in the budget that was passed.

We did put a budget forward. One that the Independents asked for and said they would support.

You seem to not understand local government. We vote on one thing only. The precept. Council officers but the budget breakdown forward. They do not have too. Once the total budget has been set, any monies can be moved from A to B to cancel one thing and start another. It is not for opposition parties to put idea's forward at Budget.

Independent ideas were rejected, all of them. Dog Bins had been in the three previous Labour budgets. Apprentice's we're awash with, so 4 were always going to Parks. The others as I recall went down the pan as ill thought out, can't possibly be done. In fact the Tories decided before hand to vote against everyone.

Originally Posted by Cyfr

Since the only proposal in your 'budget' was a 2% tax rise rather than a 5% rise, I presume you agree with the rest of the budget? And what do you do next year to sustain it? Do you increase taxes by much more than 5% to make up for the shortfall, perhaps when the economy is worse off, giving people a real tax burden.

Yesterday's polictics again. Black and white.

We agree with most of the budget, but not all, and our idea's will be affordable within a 2% increase. As I have told you 4 or 5 times now nealry all our spending is being funded outside of the Council tax from extra Gov't funds as we are a deprived area. 95% of The Council Tax budget will be the same because there is no politics in emptying bins, but it costs a lot. It's a job and we should all get it done to the best we can. The other 5% will be a shift in resources. Another batch of changes are constitutional and bare no cost.

Next year, what???? We'll just carry on within that budget. Are you suggesting Tories will put up Council tax 3 times inflation every year????

Real tax burden???? Are you related to William Hague????? I had a 23% pay rise over the period and a 45% Council tax rise. The vast majority of people are like me in this area.

Tories bring a Tax burden's, don't make out your some white knight Party. VAT (9% and 17.5%), ending of married couple's mortgage allowance.. the list goes on.... not to say not 1, but 2 Tory Cabinet members ending up behind bars!! Both for purjury.

You're barking mad as well as a labour hater. We once had a loony left and it appears you are the loony right of a desperate Conservative Party.