Councillors expenses

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I wonder if the chair of the Licensing Committee claimed his allowance for the three years when there was no meeting?

Licensing Committee

That'd work out at around £4,500 for nothing.

My estimate wasn't far wrong, although closer inspection of the allowances available has thrown up some interesting nuggets of info that I haven't previously looked at.

For example, thanks to endless posturing and prevaricating from Cllr Britcliffe (including arguing with the Mayor during a council session and refusing to acknowledge his authority, leading to a recess) it turns out that the four hours I was away from home allows me a meal allowance. Well, that chip butty wasn't free....

I also note that we spend over £35,000 on Scrutiny committee chairmen and vice-chairmen, another £17,900 on Planning committee members and quite a few thousand on committees which never sit.

Time to put my scrutiny hat on I think, but who watches the watchers?

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

My estimate wasn't far wrong, although closer inspection of the allowances available has thrown up some interesting nuggets of info that I haven't previously looked at.

For example, thanks to endless posturing and prevaricating from Cllr Britcliffe (including arguing with the Mayor during a council session and refusing to acknowledge his authority, leading to a recess) it turns out that the four hours I was away from home allows me a meal allowance. Well, that chip butty wasn't free....

I also note that we spend over £35,000 on Scrutiny committee chairmen and vice-chairmen, another £17,900 on Planning committee members and quite a few thousand on committees which never sit.

Time to put my scrutiny hat on I think, but who watches the watchers?

To my way of thinking this system is JA Rank to start with, we have 35 councillors and a handful of cabinet members the scrutiny panels, there was nothing wrong with the old committee system, more people were involved and there was better debate, or there should have been, change ain't always the best

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by jaysay

To my way of thinking this system is JA Rank to start with, we have 35 councillors and a handful of cabinet members the scrutiny panels, there was nothing wrong with the old committee system, more people were involved and there was better debate, or there should have been, change ain't always the best

I've heard tell of these old committees and it didn't sound like a bad system at all.

I've no major beef with the current system although it's pretty disorganised and no one has a clue what each one is for. To my mind it would be better to for cabinet to go the whole hog and properly mirror Westminster's key positions and then have scrutiny committees for each one with proper cross-party debate. It's supposed to happen now but all the chairs and vice-chairs just happen to be supporters of the Leader.

The one thing that seriously needs to go is all these massive allowances for doing naff all. There's no extra work involved at all in being a chairman, it's the biggest case of 'jobs for the boys' that exists within HBC.

[jaysay]

Well Ken I've never seen the new system in operation, just read about it mainly on here, but if you think a change of colour at scaitcliffe house, would make wholesale chances your more naive than I though you were

[Neil]

I don't think Cllr's should sit on scrutiny panels. It could be a job I would be good at

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

it turns out that the four hours I was away from home allows me a meal allowance. Well, that chip butty wasn't free....

You can claim £25 for that chip butty mate. I can't see anywhere as of yet the constitution states you need a receipt to claim it so you will be a few quid up

evening meal allowance - if the absence from the usual place of residence is for more than
4 hours ending after 7.00 p.m - £25

[garinda]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well Ken I've never seen the new system in operation, just read about it mainly on here, but if you think a change of colour at scaitcliffe house, would make wholesale chances your more naive than I though you were

You're living in the past.

Or at least under the illusion that Labour are in anyway red, the Conservatives are conserving, and the Liberals are liberal with their charms.

Ok scrub the last one.

The Lib Dems are political tarts.

Ready to jump in bed with anyone willing to pay the price.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by garinda

You're living in the past.

Or at least under the illusion that Labour are in anyway red, the Conservatives are conserving, and the Liberals are liberal with their charms.

Ok scrub the last one.

The Lib Dems are political tarts.

Ready to jump in bed with anyone willing to pay the price.

Na there ain't a Liberal I fancy

[garinda]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Na there ain't a Liberal I fancy

...and what first attracted you to the job of being Peter Britcliffe's agent?

[gynn]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I've heard tell of these old committees and it didn't sound like a bad system at all.

I worked under both systems, and whichever one you choose, you still end up with a nucleus of powerful councillors making all the decisions. Peter has his Cabinet, George Slynn had his "Chairs and Vice Chairs" who met behind closed doors to determine everything, especially the budget.

However, at least with committee meetings the back benchers were in on the debate prior to resolutions being passed, rather than sitting on their hands at the back of the room like naughty schoolchildren, listening to the cabinet debate. Yes they can get involved in scrutiny, but it is very much "after the event" when the impetus of the original decision is long since gone.

One of the other changes I've seen is the responsibility taken by cabinet members that usually fell in the past to chief officers. Nowadays, press releases always refer to the portfolio holder, rather than the Director of Health or the Director of Housing etc. Officers have gone from being high profile to being virtually anonymous. In the past, the Chief Executive was as well known locally, and quoted as often as, the Leader. Now, he or she is virtually anonymous.

I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, I'm just making the observation

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Neil

I don't think Cllr's should sit on scrutiny panels. It could be a job I would be good at

The scrutineers (sounds like a bunch of pirates) are nothing to do with the Cabinet and so are one step removed. I have to say that by and large the Resources committee that I sit on doesn't pull its punches with picking policies to bits and has an excellent chair in the form of Cllr Hayes.

The problem I have with it is that it barely has influence on Cabinet decisions, let alone power. If I call a portfoilio holder in for scrutiny they may simply decide to send someone in their place. Grilling the monkey instead of the organ grinder passes the buck of culpability.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by gynn

One of the other changes I've seen is the responsibility taken by cabinet members that usually fell in the past to chief officers. Nowadays, press releases always refer to the portfolio holder, rather than the Director of Health or the Director of Housing etc. Officers have gone from being high profile to being virtually anonymous. In the past, the Chief Executive was as well known locally, and quoted as often as, the Leader. Now, he or she is virtually anonymous.

I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, I'm just making the observation

That's one thing I am in favour of unless it has been discussed with the officer in question beforehand. Councillors sign up for a life in the public eye, council officers generally just want a job and I don't see any reason for them to become the focus for something which may end up being an unpopular move. If they're simply carrying out the instructions of the Cabinet then it is for the council to decide whether they are doing a good job, not for the public to decide based on the popularity of a policy.

In my view, civil servants enact policy, councillors take the credit or the blame for their own ideas.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well Ken I've never seen the new system in operation, just read about it mainly on here, but if you think a change of colour at scaitcliffe house, would make wholesale chances your more naive than I though you were

Oh God, here we go.....

I'm sure that when Labour take control again AccyWeb will be awash with Conservative councillors and the reds will disappear into the ether, never to be heard from again. What surprises me is that you're so absolutely sure of how Labour will play the game. Virtually all the councillors are different from when you were involved in politics and times have changed ever so slightly. You of all people should therefore realise that any reforms will need about 12 months to have any impact but I'm afraid wholesale changes aren't really an option, they're a necessity.

Better let Peter know, if he's still writing the songs then he'll need to make them too.

[steeljack]

Ken Moss ...(town center thread ) ..I've spent a fair bit of time in Accy this past six months and as someone who hasn't grown up here I'm not as critical as those who have watched its decline.

(sorry don't know how to join two threads together )

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

Councillors sign up for a life in the public eye, council officers generally just want a job and I don't see any reason for them to become the focus

In my view, civil servants enact policy, councillors take the credit or the blame for their own ideas.

not being critical Ken .. but maybe you need to ask one or two of your Labour colleagues who have lived in Hyndburn for a few more years than you about a chap with the surname Rix , seem to remember he used to wield quite a bit of power when he was a Council employee ... whatever happened to him

am sure Jaysay can add to the story ..

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Ken Moss ...(town center thread ) ..I've spent a fair bit of time in Accy this past six months and as someone who hasn't grown up here I'm not as critical as those who have watched its decline.

(sorry don't know how to join two threads together )

not being critical Ken .. but maybe you need to ask one or two of your Labour colleagues who have lived in Hyndburn for a few more years than you about a chap with the surname Rix , seem to remember he used to wield quite a bit of power when he was a Council employee ... whatever happened to him

If I've given the impression that I expect council employees to be neutered puppets then that's not what I'm trying to say at all. There are some very influential and highly competent officers at HBC, I'm just saying that I don't think it's terribly fair to drag them into political slanging matches when they're simply trying to do their job.