Creationism versus Evolution - Page 6

Tinkerbelle · 29-04-2006, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wkd_one

we as a race have evolved and learned enough to figure out that what the bilbe says is basicly nosence and to be quite honest we should be smart enough not to need religeion to keep us in check or provide morals

That's the problem though, obviously people do need religion to keep them in check. Look at the decline in society since the church (of any religious conviction) doesn't command the same respect it once did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gayle

That's why religion or beliefs should be fairly personal and as long as no one tries to change anyone elses beliefs we should all be able to get along.

I agree with you that beliefs is personal but if a persons faith is strong enough another person wouldn't be able to change their beliefs however hard they tried anyway. Problems arise when people have no respect for a persons religion/beliefs and ridicule them just because they don't understand it themselves.

Gayle · 29-04-2006, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinkerbelle

I agree with you that beliefs is personal but if a persons faith is strong enough another person wouldn't be able to change their beliefs however hard they tried anyway. Problems arise when people have no respect for a persons religion/beliefs and ridicule them just because they don't understand it themselves.

Totally agree and that's why even if someone came up with 100% that God did or didn't exist you'd still get some who didn't believe you because their faith is that strong.

jambutty · 29-04-2006, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

No time scale mentioned there, millions,billions,zillions who knows ??

6 "Creative" Days to put life on the earth.

How long is a day to God ??

There is NO evidence that humans have been on this planet any longer than 6,000 years.

Then the 100,000 years old human bones are fake then? Neanderthal man did not exist!

SPUGGIE J · 29-04-2006, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Then the 100,000 years old human bones are fake then? Neanderthal man did not exist!

Maybe some think of this as gods mistake and he tried again. If we dont evolve we stagnate and die out wether we like it or not. What would be the point of the Almighty putting us here if we did not evolve and grow it would have been a waste of time and effort.

Anyway Homo neanderthalensis cant have died out completely as there are plenty on the streets at the weekend (tongue in cheek) causing bedlam.

wkd_one · 29-04-2006, 15:19

i thought we already established woman as gods mistake ...?

Gayle · 29-04-2006, 15:27

God's big joke was to put two totally different species on this earth and then forced them into pairing up in order for either species to survive.

SPUGGIE J · 29-04-2006, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gayle

God's big joke was to put two totally different species on this earth and then forced them into pairing up in order for either species to survive.

Take it this aimed about m n m and not polititions?

WillowTheWhisp · 29-04-2006, 17:17

I think I agree with more or less everything Simon has said so far. There is no proof that man has evolved from anything else. Aren't scientists even now saying that Neanderthal man was a different species which actually went exinct?

Yes there is adaption within a species to suit a location or climate - things like ermines having white fur in winter to camouflage them in the snow. Yes dog breeders can produce different breeds of dogs or breed certain breeds of dog so that their ears get longer with successive generations but there is no chance of a dog breeder looking at his Great Danes and thinking "I fancy having a llama, I'll evolve one out of this lot." It just can't be done. Dogs are dogs and llamas are llamas. You can get lions breeding with tigers to produce ligers and tigons but you can't get tigons breeding with tigons to produce tigons. Even if you could though, they are still cats, they are still feline. You can't get them to change species.

As for how long creation took, well how long is one of God's days? A year? A thousand years? A million, a billion years?

I don't believe God makes mistakes. For some reason he wanted to create dinosaurs but I believe he got all the dinosaurs over and done with before he made man. I have no idea why.

I can understand what makes people say there can't be a God or he wouldn't let all the wickedness in the world continue - well there was a time when he didn't. He drowned everybody apart from Noah and his family and they were then instructed to start going forth and multiplying all over again, but he also made a promise to Noah that he would never destroy everything like that again. No matter how wicked humans become God will still keep that promise.

It's funny how this subject seems to be cropping up all over the place lately. Apparently there was a prog on the radio yesterday and there's been a thread on the eBay Round Table forum for a while now (it's over 1600 posts long but some of that is a bit of thread wandering) There's an interesting bit been brought up on there by someone about Sumerian clay tablets with cuniform writings which amongst other things contains references to a great deluge when nearly all the people were drowned. These clay tablets predate Genesis according the the person who posted about them. They also tell of beings from elsewhere who created humanity. The poster there refers to these beings as extra terrestrials (others have called them aliens) but couldn't they equally refer to God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ who the Bible says was there in the beginning and through him all things were made?

jambutty · 30-04-2006, 12:54

This God that some people seem to think existed was an exceedingly vain person. The first three commandments are all about him.
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain:
3. Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

Quote:

I don't believe God makes mistakes.

Accepting for a moment that there is a God, he (if it was a he) made three mistakes. One was called Adam, one called Eve and giving them a free will to do as they chose yet forbade them to eat the fruit off one particular tree. So Eve tempted Adam to sample the fruit and being a forgiving God they got banished and condemned the whole of humanity to a life of toil. Whatever happened to forgiveness? So it was a question of we can do what you like just as long as we follow his rules.

Hang on a minute though. Weren’t Adam and Eve supposed to be perfect? Perfect people don’t tempt others to break the rules.

5. Thou shalt not kill.
Excuse me but just exactly what did this God do when he created the flood? Wasn’t all life on the planet killed by the flood created by this God except for Noah, his wife, their children and their wives and not forgetting all animals etc? Then there is the story of the Egyptians chasing the Israelites and the parting of the seas to drown the Egyptian army.

Didn’t God tell the Israelites to attack and take over Jericho and kill the inhabitants as the first of many towns?

Oh! I see! It’s a case of do as I say, not as I do.

Religion evolved to try and wrest control from the ruling classes. It is nothing more than a means of controlling the population. In some countries Islam has a stronger hold over the people than the government.

If people want to believe in some mystical being and it gives them some degree of comfort then that is fine by me but don’t even bother trying to convert me. More importantly stop brainwashing children into your beliefs before they are old enough to evaluate things for themselves.

Tinkerbelle · 30-04-2006, 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

If people want to believe in some mystical being and it gives them some degree of comfort then that is fine by me but don’t even bother trying to convert me. More importantly stop brainwashing children into your beliefs before they are old enough to evaluate things for themselves.

Well I was with you all the way there Jambutty until the above statements. First of all I hope that 'don't even try to convert me' was just a random statment as I can't see anyone trying to convert anyone on here. People are just sharing their beliefs, converting someone has to be done by choice not something that you are made to do kicking and screaming. You keep your beliefs but allow others to have their own without being accused of trying to 'convert' people please.

As for brainwashing children, I don't think so! My mother as a baby wasn't allowed into my Great Grandmothers home until she had been Churched but doesn't have religion. It did her no harm. It is a parents right to choose their childs religion and when the child is old enough they will rebel against it if it's not what they believe.

WillowTheWhisp · 30-04-2006, 14:19

I was packed off to the Methodist Sunday School every week as a child. Neither of my parents were Methodists but I think their Sunday School was convenient. I rebelled against it and after a period of not believing in anything I came to my own decision to "test" if God was there with a sort of "I don't know if you do exist but just in case you do I'm talking to you". I then went on to search for a meaning, purpose whatever you want to call it and that took me many places before I ended up where I am today.

Yes, I bring my children up in the church I belong to because I believe in it. I also believe they have minds of their own and will one day either choose to stay or choose to leave. I know people who have children who were brought up on the church and who now no longer attend, or have one child who does and one who doesn't. One friend of mine is the only one of her brothers and sisters who is an active member of the church. So it can't exactly be brainwashing can it or they'd all still be active. On the other hand we've got one young woman whose own mother is no longer an active member but she the daughter has become an active member by her own choice. So it's all individual.

I like the way children are taught about other religions and know much more about the rest of the world. If anything could be considered indoctrination perhaps it's the theory of evolution which despite it being a theory with more than a couple of holes in it is still taught as concrete fact in schools.

I don't think anyone can actually convert anyone else to their beliefs anyway. I think we can explain what we believe and why but conversion comes from within. It has to. No-one can be converted on the strength of what someone else believes. I remember a returned missionary being asked how many people he converted and the answer was "None, but the Holy Spirit converted quite a few."

g jones · 30-04-2006, 14:28

This is a great thread! Better than politics, especially this week!

Has anyone ever listened to Bill Hicks? I think he was one of the funniest men ever and he certainly had it in for neo-cons.His stuff is on iTunes. 'Dinosaurs In The Bible' and 'Living God' are so funny. Has anyone else heard him and what do they think?

I think if anyone wants a good laugh start with Arizona Bay - hilarious.

jambutty · 30-04-2006, 15:23

My “don’t bother trying to convert me” wasn’t directed at anyone on this forum Tinkerbelle but a general statement to anyone with aspirations of being a missionary.

I’ll tell you how brain washed children were in my day. It was very subtle starting with morning assembly prayers. If we had school dinners we had to say grace before AND AFTER the meal. Even at the tender age of 5 we had Catholic religious instructions usually given by a priest from the church associated with the school. We had learned a simple version of the Ten Commandments off by heart before we could even add up simple numbers. Before we had left primary school we were taught the Catechism and we were each given a rosary. I can remember word for word prayers not just in English but in Latin and I never did Latin as a language lesson in school. As far as I know that degree of brain washing doesn’t happen these days except in church schools.

WillowTheWhisp · 30-04-2006, 16:10

Does that happen in church schools today, given that many children attending church schools seem to be muslim?

Tinkerbelle · 30-04-2006, 16:16

Thanks for explaining that, and from your explanation I do actually understand now were you are coming from. I do have my own opinions on it too but wouldn't feel it was fair of me to criticise Roman Catholics in particular, though I will agree I have known many people who felt restricted and controlled by the religion as children that still affects them into adulthood ....... but on the other hand many adults who have and still do have great faith In Catholicism.