Cumbria Shootings

[Stanleymad]

Blimey ksh scary stuff indeed, glad your safe and well and condolences to all the local people effected in the area.
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[tosh]

absolutely tragic

[Mancie]

Another tragic mass murder by someone who legally held guns, same as Dunblane and Hungerford....no law against holding guns will stop anyone intent on mass murder, but a total ban on firearms would at least lessen the chances of this happening.
The Dunblane and Hungerford mass murders were both carried out by men who had legally owned guns... I've never heard any compelling argument to give anyone a licence to kill by allowing them to own guns, this bloke was a taxi driver.. why was he allowed to own a shootgun and rifle?

[K.S.H]

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We heard he'd crashed the car and others say he just abandoned it, not sure which is right, if he'd have got where he was heading he would have wiped a lot more out on the road probably, he was just short of the start of the hard knot pass when he left the car, anyone who's been on this road will know what I mean

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Mancie

Another tragic mass murder by someone who legally held guns, same as Dunblane and Hungerford....no law against holding guns will stop anyone intent on mass murder, but a total ban on firearms would at least lessen the chances of this happening.
The Dunblane and Hungerford mass murders were both carried out by men who had legally owned guns... I've never heard any compelling argument to give anyone a licence to kill by allowing them to own guns, this bloke was a taxi driver.. why was he allowed to own a shootgun and rifle?

It is evident you don't know the facts of the cases re Dumblane & Hungerford, both men if the police had applied the firearms act as it then was would have had their permits revoked.
In the case of Dumblane he was not a member of any recognised gun club, they refused his membership, even a police sergeant recommended his certificate renewal be refused, but he was over ruled. And Ryan had also commited offences which were enough to have his permit refused.
Then the hooray and promises by Tony Blair to make the streets safer, did it, did it hell, there are now more unregistered firearms than there ever were.
I owned and used several firearms for nigh on 60 years before I surendered my certifcate and had the fire arms destroyed.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people with whatever is available, he could have done the same amount of lumber with his taxi, or a cross bow.
Retlaw.

[kestrelx]

Originally Posted by Mancie

Another tragic mass murder by someone who legally held guns, same as Dunblane and Hungerford....no law against holding guns will stop anyone intent on mass murder, but a total ban on firearms would at least lessen the chances of this happening.
The Dunblane and Hungerford mass murders were both carried out by men who had legally owned guns... I've never heard any compelling argument to give anyone a licence to kill by allowing them to own guns, this bloke was a taxi driver.. why was he allowed to own a shootgun and rifle?

Apparently the guns were handed down from his father and are standard weapons for hunting, shotgun for rabbits and the .22 rifle used for deer stalking.

Thing is what was this guy doing with them did he use them. What they should do is change the law so that licences only last a year by which time the owner has to account to Police or similar organisation as what they are doing with the guns and when they last used them. If they no longer use them then why have them?

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by kestrelx

Apparently the guns were handed down from his father and are standard weapons for hunting, shotgun for rabbits and the .22 rifle used for deer stalking.

Thing is what was this guy doing with them did he use them. What they should do is change the law so that licences only last a year by which time the owner has to account to Police or similar organisation as what they are doing with the guns and when they last used them. If they no longer use them then why have them?

Fire arms certificates have to be renewed ever three years, there are no licenses.
For him to have held them legally he would have had to show good reason & provide proof of where he used them, along with written permission from land owners or membership of a recognised club.
So far no one has proved to me that he held them legally.
Retlaw.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Mancie

Another tragic mass murder by someone who legally held guns, same as Dunblane and Hungerford....no law against holding guns will stop anyone intent on mass murder, but a total ban on firearms would at least lessen the chances of this happening.
The Dunblane and Hungerford mass murders were both carried out by men who had legally owned guns... I've never heard any compelling argument to give anyone a licence to kill by allowing them to own guns, this bloke was a taxi driver.. why was he allowed to own a shootgun and rifle?

a total ban on firearms would not prevent these tragedys, a nutter is a nutter simple as. same as normal the call goes up to punish everyone, farmers need guns fer various things, most gun owners use em fer sport or are members of clubs fer enjoyment, i myself have never owned a firearm, probably cos the police refused me a licence, ya have more chance of reducing these things, if the existing laws were used consistently n properly,some areas seem to do this, seems some don't.but is that not the same in many areas of life?

[DaveinGermany]

The whole thing about Guns is that they are used to kill, as a youngster I often went with my father shooting, even my younger Brother & Sister tried it out. We went "Hunting" for pigeons, rabbits & other game dependent on the season. At no time would I or any of my family ever of considered using said weapon on another human being. My father was licensed & we had permission from the land owners. That was our reason for having weapons in the house & on a few occasions the police came to our house to check on our storage & security, no Problems.

As Retlaw stated it's not the Weapon itself it's the user, far more useful than the plods knocking on the door asking to see the licence or the storage arrangements would be for the shooter to submit to a medical both physical & mental to ascertain their suitability to posses & use firearms. The registered users are always the easy option, but having said all that, who will control & enforce such a ruling (venturing into human rights & personal freedoms).

I spent a few years in HM forces where I was obliged to carry a weapon & if the situation decreed I was expected to use it to "Kill another Human being" believe me this was definitely not on my list of things to do when I joined but it was expected should needs arise. I was fortunate enough never to have to pull the trigger, but on occasion I had need to site down a barrel on a living, breathing, person, not pleasant. Does this then make me into a raging murdering psychopath, NO.

The reason why ? Because of my mental balance, my moral compass my understanding of what is right & wrong & what is acceptable or not. These people who do such things are missing in part some of the above if not all of the above & that is why we see the terrible cases like this all to often. So before the Witch hunt on gun owners & demanding all guns be banned, we have to get to the root of the problem first.

It's not the weapon that is just a construct of metal & wood, it is the unstable user that causes the problems, these are the things that need dealing with.

[Tealeaf]

Cashy - slung out of every pub in Accy...and the cops refuse you a gun licence? What a surprise!

[cashman]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Cashy - slung out of every pub in Accy...and the cops refuse you a gun licence? What a surprise!

yep came as a hell of a shock to me T. only mentioned though to make a point, some forces DO use the existing laws.

[Mancie]

Like I said I still have not heard of any good reason why people should be allowed to own guns and keep them ain thier homes.
Of course if anyone is intent on murder using guns then no amount of laws will stop them.. but the facts are that Dunblane, Hungerford and this massacre in Cumbria were all carried out using licenced weapons.. if anyone's argument is that people should be allowed guns simply because they like to use them for recreational purposes.. or just like the look of them.. then I don't think that is a very good argument.

[DaveinGermany]

Assumed causes & course of the shooting,

The grievances and grudges that drove Derrick Bird over the edge - Crime, UK - The Independent

[sm_counsell]

Terrible news. I read the article in the Independent, but one question I have to ask is what was the crazy man doing with two guns?.
What are the laws on possessing guns in the UK now?

[TJH]

To obtain a shotgun certificate requires more than just a simple form. An investment of around £250 and a doctors letter, you have have to have a character reference from a trusted and respected member of the community. Also a vist and interview with a trainied firearms officer. Once you obtain the certificate it will expire after 5 years, meaning you go through it again and are rechecked etc.
The argument of keeping guns at home is much the same as keeping fishing rods at home of a set of golf clubs. Most people based in Lancashire who own a shotgun will attend claypigeon shooting grounds, this is a great hobby but not cheap. I own shotguns as does my neigbour and farther and most of my friends. Although the law does not require you to state a purpose to own a shotgun, it does state how it must be stored and transported etc. They are tools for work or hobby, just like golf clubs which are dangerous if used for the wrong reasons.

If you are lucky like i am to have land, then you need a shotgun to keep control of vermin etc.

Firearms certificates are totally different, these are much harder to obtain. You must state why you need the gun, on most occasions be a member of a rifle club, you are only allowed the guns approved by the firearms officer at the time of application. Any changes and you must register for a variation. All bullets are registered and counted. Random spot checks are carried out. You need 2 references and a doctors letter.

When ever you purchase a shotgun or rifle, it is all logged, you must send off paperwork or risk jail. The place of purchase will inform the police at the time of purchase.

The laws are there and do work if applied. If you can't see a reason to have guns in your home then you dont need a shotgun etc, but to be narrow minded on the uses of such weapons and state they should not be allowed is blind stupidity.

The simple although over stated fact is, cars are more dangerous and that shinny kitchen knife, that is repsonable for more deaths, but you have a purpose for knifes, so lets not ban them yet!.