Death Penalty , should this guy die ?

[jambutty]

As a victim of crime on 10 occasions I feel that I have more right to make my feelings known than those who have not been a victim and only spout what they think they will feel.

You do not know how you will feel until you have experienced it.

7 burglaries (8 if you count the night-time break in of a newsagents that I managed), 1 vehicle being torched plus several cases of vehicle vandalising, 1 mugging by some glue sniffing turd who wanted my bag of chips that left me battered and bruised and 1 GBH that put me in hospital.

The initial feeling is “I wish that it hadn’t happened”. Immediately followed by “I’d like to rip the thug’s heart out.” In other words revenge. Then the law abiding side of me kicked in and I hoped that the torags would be caught and punished.

Sadly only one burglar was caught and the thug who put me in hospital. I have no idea what happened to both.

When my son on his bike was hit by a drunken driver and put into hospital (Booth Hall) on a life support machine and unconscious for a week I wanted to tear the driver limb from limb. The last thing on my mind was ‘let the law handle it’. In the end I had to settle for the law taking its course but a 12 months ban and a fine was nowhere near enough punishment.

It didn’t take into account the victim’s weeks of loss of memory and the frustration and anger at having to learn simple tasks all over again. Not forgetting the 6 months of no school because of memory loss. The blinding headaches that still occur today.

It didn’t take into account the nightmare that I found myself in. Could I agree to switching off the life support if it came to that?

So unless you have actually been a victim of a serous crime you know diddly squat and your moral outrage towards capital punishment is a sham.

[BERNADETTE]

Willow I do understand where you are coming from and no I am not advocating that he should be tortured. These criminals who live where the death sentence is still used know that they could receive said sentence. So if they can't hack it they should take it into consideration before taking someone else's life. If the sentence is carried out he won't suffer unlike his poor victim and her mother who will spend her life suffering.

[Eric]

Just been reading the local rag. Looks like another murder conviction, this one thirty two years old is about to be overturned. The accused was a common criminal who later had the audacity to take his own lawyer hostage! Erin Walsh, who is dying of colon cancer, says "I'm no angel. Believe me, I'm a terrible person ... But I was in prison for a crime I did not commit." And this cannot be dismissed as an isolated incident. If we had capital punishment, this guy would have been swinging at the end of a rope 32 years ago.

[grego]

I dont think this man deserves to live, what he did to this child is beyond belief for me, I certainlt dont see it as him disposing of something he didn't want, if it had been my child I would get great peace from knowing proper justice was done, I'm no monster, he is!

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by jambutty

As a victim of crime on 10 occasions I feel that I have more right to make my feelings known than those who have not been a victim and only spout what they think they will feel.

You do not know how you will feel until you have experienced it.

7 burglaries (8 if you count the night-time break in of a newsagents that I managed), 1 vehicle being torched plus several cases of vehicle vandalising, 1 mugging by some glue sniffing turd who wanted my bag of chips that left me battered and bruised and 1 GBH that put me in hospital.

The initial feeling is “I wish that it hadn’t happened”. Immediately followed by “I’d like to rip the thug’s heart out.” In other words revenge. Then the law abiding side of me kicked in and I hoped that the torags would be caught and punished.

Sadly only one burglar was caught and the thug who put me in hospital. I have no idea what happened to both.

When my son on his bike was hit by a drunken driver and put into hospital (Booth Hall) on a life support machine and unconscious for a week I wanted to tear the driver limb from limb. The last thing on my mind was ‘let the law handle it’. In the end I had to settle for the law taking its course but a 12 months ban and a fine was nowhere near enough punishment.

It didn’t take into account the victim’s weeks of loss of memory and the frustration and anger at having to learn simple tasks all over again. Not forgetting the 6 months of no school because of memory loss. The blinding headaches that still occur today.

It didn’t take into account the nightmare that I found myself in. Could I agree to switching off the life support if it came to that?

So unless you have actually been a victim of a serous crime you know diddly squat and your moral outrage towards capital punishment is a sham.

Jambutty speaking as the father of a victim of crime (my stepdaughter was raped) I can honestly say I felt so let down when the police refused to prosecute. I can also say that I know the indivisual concerned and if I had come face to face with him in the months following I don't know what I would have done but would probably have ended up in gaol myself.

However looking back on that now I am glad I didn't, I am also glad that my stepdaughter didn't have to go through seeing me face court or have to go through the following investigation and questioning that would have followed and her reliving her ordeal. So get your facts right before you jump on your high horse and attack my moral stance.

We do not have the right to vengeance, yes prison and the judicial system are there as punishment but also as deterrent and for rehabilitation. I also do not feel that being a victim of crime gives anyone MORE RIGHT than anyone else to have a point of view. It gives you a personal insight as to how a victim feels but not to disparage anyone else's viewpoint who has not been in that unfortunate position.

Just for the record my view on capital punishment is that it is state sanctioned murder and if you are a christian, the commandment says Thou Shalt Not Kill. So ergo if you live in a christian nation how can you level that with capital punishment.

As an atheist I personally believe that killing in any form is morally wrong and that taking a life by any means is repugnant and in the case of capital punishment is lowering oneself to the level of the individual who committed the crime.

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

As an atheist I personally believe that killing in any form is morally wrong and that taking a life by any means is repugnant and in the case of capital punishment is lowering oneself to the level of the individual who committed the crime.

Just curious , does this also mean that you believe members of the Armed services are nothing more than trained killers , and the Forces members who took part in the Iraq invasion are guilty of taking part in mass murder ?

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by steeljack

Just curious , does this also mean that you believe members of the Armed services are nothing more than trained killers , and the Forces members who took part in the Iraq invasion are guilty of taking part in mass murder ?

Hopefully not starting a thread wander here,.

I believe that the armed forces are a necessary evil. (my stepdaughter's fiance is currently in Afghanistan so I have an understanding as to how families of our servicemen and women are feeling). However Afghanistan and Iraq are 2 different ballgames. Afghanistan I can understand Iraq I can't as it appears to be Dubbya finishing what his father started.

So in answer to your question no and yes..

[WillowTheWhisp]

I too have been a victim of crime on more than one occasion so I do know what it's like. I've also had my daughter in hospital ICU but at no time did I wish to tear the driver limb from limb. My focus was on my daughter's condition and thankfully her recovery.

I have no desire to murder, maim, rob, commit fraud or vandalise. Not because I fear being caught but because I know that to do so is wrong. I believe we all have within us the moral spark, conscience whatever you want to call it which tells is what is right and wrong. Unfortunately some people choose to ignore it and believe that so long as they don't get caught it doesn't matter what they do. However I do not believe that is the majority. Because we do have those who feel they have a right to break this moral code then we need laws to deal with them.

I prefer to let the law deal with them. Sometimes it takes a long time but that is preferable to a lynch mob acting on the spur of the moment fuelled by anger and vengeance.

Incidentally in the case of Derek Bentley, although he was 19, he actually had a mental age of a much younger child and was far less responsible than 16 year old Chris Craig.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

Jambutty speaking as the father of a victim of crime (my stepdaughter was raped) I can honestly say I felt so let down when the police refused to prosecute. I can also say that I know the indivisual concerned and if I had come face to face with him in the months following I don't know what I would have done but would probably have ended up in gaol myself.

However looking back on that now I am glad I didn't, I am also glad that my stepdaughter didn't have to go through seeing me face court or have to go through the following investigation and questioning that would have followed and her reliving her ordeal. So get your facts right before you jump on your high horse and attack my moral stance.

We do not have the right to vengeance, yes prison and the judicial system are there as punishment but also as deterrent and for rehabilitation. I also do not feel that being a victim of crime gives anyone MORE RIGHT than anyone else to have a point of view. It gives you a personal insight as to how a victim feels but not to disparage anyone else's viewpoint who has not been in that unfortunate position.

Just for the record my view on capital punishment is that it is state sanctioned murder and if you are a christian, the commandment says Thou Shalt Not Kill. So ergo if you live in a christian nation how can you level that with capital punishment.

As an atheist I personally believe that killing in any form is morally wrong and that taking a life by any means is repugnant and in the case of capital punishment is lowering oneself to the level of the individual who committed the crime.

My sympathies to your stepdaughter for her ordeal.

However the fact that the police refused to prosecute means that they did not have enough evidence to get a successful conviction. But by your own admission you felt like doing the guy some mischief and the only thing that prevented you was not meeting him. You were vengeful so join me on the ground off your moral high horse.

However be that as it may. When a criminal is caught s/he is charged, tried and if found guilty, convicted with whatever punishment that the law decrees. Isn’t that vengeance being executed by proxy? What is punishment if it is not vengeance? We all want criminals to be punished according to the law. We all want vengeance.

When the death penalty was in force it was the law that decreed that for certain offences the penalty would be death by hanging. Thus you cannot have ‘state sanctioned MURDER’. People use the word murder because it is more emotive than simple killing. But it is wrong, totally wrong. It is state sanctioned lawful killing of a criminal who has been tried by his/her peers in a legitimate court of law and found guilty of a crime where the penalty is death by hanging.

As a victim of several crimes I do have the right to express my feelings about the incidents more so than someone has not been a victim. They can only think how they might feel about it. And personal bravado comes into the equation where people will try to show off how tough they are with making claims of what they would do. When it comes to the crunch few people act on their feelings be they real or assumed.

We are going to have to agree to differ on the capital punishment point but your moral outrage will not make me change my view. If someone sets out to murder someone, and remember that murder is the PREMEDITATED killing of another human, then they deserve to forfeit their own life.

[blazey]

I find it confusing how people can say that they believe the eye for an eye rule is fair as murdering someone is wrong...

If murdering someone is wrong, then why would you want to kill them? Oh yeh, its because you wouldn't be the ones actually killing them so what does it matter.

Go and live in America if you want the death penalty, and be the ones who are giving the lethal injection. Once you realise the horrors of it and see that it can be a slow death, you wont care what crime that person committed, because you'll never forget the images of administering the injection to someone, and being the one that kills them.

Why should a good person have to go to work and kill people everyday? The word 'KILL' can't ever be used in a good way, and neither can 'execute' or 'destroyed', and I doubt many of you refer to the term 'put to sleep when referring to a human being on death row'. And then their family have to watch their son/daughter/brother/sister etc die and why should they be put through that too?

It doesnt even save any money because theyre still on death row for years and years anyway and given chances to appeal.

I mean, forget america, why not go to saudi arabia or something and just stone people to death every day or something. They love eye for an eye there.

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by jambutty

My sympathies to your stepdaughter for her ordeal.

However the fact that the police refused to prosecute means that they did not have enough evidence to get a successful conviction. But by your own admission you felt like doing the guy some mischief and the only thing that prevented you was not meeting him. You were vengeful so join me on the ground off your moral high horse.

However be that as it may. When a criminal is caught s/he is charged, tried and if found guilty, convicted with whatever punishment that the law decrees. Isn’t that vengeance being executed by proxy? What is punishment if it is not vengeance? We all want criminals to be punished according to the law. We all want vengeance.

When the death penalty was in force it was the law that decreed that for certain offences the penalty would be death by hanging. Thus you cannot have ‘state sanctioned MURDER’. People use the word murder because it is more emotive than simple killing. But it is wrong, totally wrong. It is state sanctioned lawful killing of a criminal who has been tried by his/her peers in a legitimate court of law and found guilty of a crime where the penalty is death by hanging.

As a victim of several crimes I do have the right to express my feelings about the incidents more so than someone has not been a victim. They can only think how they might feel about it. And personal bravado comes into the equation where people will try to show off how tough they are with making claims of what they would do. When it comes to the crunch few people act on their feelings be they real or assumed.

We are going to have to agree to differ on the capital punishment point but your moral outrage will not make me change my view. If someone sets out to murder someone, and remember that murder is the PREMEDITATED killing of another human, then they deserve to forfeit their own life.

I agree we will have to agree to differ that is what makes debate on here excellent.

I did say however I was glad I didn't meet him and that vengeance would have been wrong. I am very pleased and if justice had had it's way I would have been happier. My statement on that was vengeance is wrong both for the victim and the offender.

However before the debate finishes I would like a few questions answered by those in favour of the death penalty.

1 How do christians in favour of the death penalty put it into context with the 10 commandments and Jesus's teachings of forgiveness?
2 How do you say sorry to a corpse if they have been wrongly convicted and executed?
3 Why do countries with a death penalty have a higher death per capita ratio than those without?
4 How you deter someone from killing again once they have committed the ultimate crime?


With regards to the you cannot have state sanctioned murder argument, murder is by your definition the premeditated killing of another human being, what then is passing the death sentence?

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Stanaccy

I agree we will have to agree to differ that is what makes debate on here excellent.

I did say however I was glad I didn't meet him and that vengeance would have been wrong. I am very pleased and if justice had had it's way I would have been happier. My statement on that was vengeance is wrong both for the victim and the offender.

However before the debate finishes I would like a few questions answered by those in favour of the death penalty.

1 How do christians in favour of the death penalty put it into context with the 10 commandments and Jesus's teachings of forgiveness?
2 How do you say sorry to a corpse if they have been wrongly convicted and executed?
3 Why do countries with a death penalty have a higher death per capita ratio than those without?
4 How you deter someone from killing again once they have committed the ultimate crime?


With regards to the you cannot have state sanctioned murder argument, murder is by your definition the premeditated killing of another human being, what then is passing the death sentence?

Whether you like it or not or are prepared to admit it, wanting a criminal punished for their crime is exacting vengeance on them. But instead of doing it ourselves we let the judicial system do it on our behalf.

Let me see if I have got this right. Christianity stemmed from Jesus who was the Son of God. God handed down the Ten Commandments to Moses one of which was the ‘thou shalt not kill’ bit. It also stated ‘thou shalt not steal’ ‘nor covet thy neighbour’s wife’. There’s an awful lot of stealing going on and coveting.

Yet according to the Old Testament this God parted the waters of the Red Sea to let the Israelites through then let the waters close on the thousands of Egyptian soldiers pursuing them and they drowned. This God didn’t do this just once he did it twice. This God killed the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah when they refused to change their licentious and incestuous ways. This God ordered the Israelites to attack and take Jericho by force, meaning that they killed all and sundry. Jericho was the first of many cities dealt with in this way. This God struck down all who opposed him or blasphemed him.

Oh! I get it! The God was a ‘do as I say’ not a ‘do as I do’ God.

For centuries Christians have raised armies and attacked and killed their enemies for no other reason than to gain land or to foist their beliefs onto others. The last notable Christian to have killed millions, albeit by proxy, was Adolph Hitler and I do believe that he was a Catholic.

2. The question is academic because we don’t have the death penalty in the UK.

3. I have no idea. Which countries are you referring to? Us and the US? Some statistics would be helpful to back up your claim.

4. Lock them up until their death or hang them.

It is not my definition but that of people far clever and more thoroughly versed in the English language than me.

The passing of the death sentence is an action by a judge in accordance with the law and is thus a legal action just as much as handing out 10 years clink. Murder by definition is not a legal action.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by jambutty

2. The question is academic because we don’t have the death penalty in the UK.

But we used to have, and it has happened so that is one very good reason for not bringing back the death penalty.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by jambutty

2. The question is academic because we don’t have the death penalty in the UK.

Is that not the whole point of this debate? To have an academic discussion on the death penalty? You're in favour of it and hes asking you what you'd do when mistakes were made as you can't just release dead people from jail.

[entwisi]

Originally Posted by jambutty

The last notable Christian to have killed millions, albeit by proxy, was Adolph Hitler and I do believe that he was a Catholic.

I'd argue that the last to kill millions is actually good old George W Bush.... And hes as loopy religious as they come.



As for the comment as to if we are wrong. If you've kept someone inside for 40 years then you could argue that you've actually been guilty of mental torture. After all being alive and knowing just what sort of life you should be having you could say is worse than being dead and not knowing. How do you compensate someone for effectively stopping them getting married, having kids, living life and having teh freedoms that you and I take for granted.

I always said that if I had a bad accident on my bike and was left in a vegetative state such that I couldn't communcate I'd rather someone pull teh plug as it would drive me out of my mind to be locked in that world with no way of making myself heard.