Degree Level for nursing

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Bah! When was the last time any of you actually saw a 'real nurse' doing any nursing?

Those that do all the 'nursing' jobs like :- looking after patients (soon to be known as customers..I kid you not), changing beds, cleaning up bodily fluids, enemas, shaving, etc..etc..etc.. are not in fact qualified nurses..they are care assistants in all but name, and deserve recognition for their unrewarded work.

'Real nurses' are the ones stood at 'nurse stations' who stare at you, with vacant looks on their face, should you ask anything about the welfare of people on their wards. They are the ones that spout platitudes like 'I don't know which ward he's on now, I wasn't on shift when he moved' or 'I'm training here, I usually work in the <insert greek word here> department'. They are overpaid, underworked and spend most of their time bleating about car parking, unsociable hours and how hard done to they are.

Its these 'real nurses' that will be educated to degree level..and why not..they do beggar all else, they may as well jump on the 'advanced mustard application'(©Eric 2009) bandwagon

I retired from nursing seven years ago........I was one of the 'real' nurses, even though, as Sister on the ward, I had managerial responsibilities, I liked making the beds, doing the medicines, bed-bathing.......all these were the jobs where you got to know your patient.......I would see my ladies every day I was on duty...which was five days out of seven.......whereas some of my Staff Nurses would do 3 shifts of 12 hours and consequently would not know their patients.
I consider that I was a good nurse, and many people told me that I was.......I nursed patients how I would want my mother cared for.

I was a late starter to nursing, had no paper qualifications (and as such when these new directives are implemented, would not stand a chance).....paper qualifications mean absolutely nothing if the desire to care for people is not there.

Degree Education does not lead to better standards of care.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by garinda

Bring back Matrons.

Though would a male one be called a Patron?

No more Matrons I can hear Hattie Jaques spinning in her grave.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I retired from nursing seven years ago........I was one of the 'real' nurses, even though, as Sister on the ward, I had managerial responsibilities, I liked making the beds, doing the medicines, bed-bathing.......all these were the jobs where you got to know your patient.......I would see my ladies every day I was on duty...which was five days out of seven.......whereas some of my Staff Nurses would do 3 shifts of 12 hours and consequently would not know their patients.
I consider that I was a good nurse, and many people told me that I was.......I nursed patients how I would want my mother cared for.

I was a late starter to nursing, had no paper qualifications (and as such when these new directives are implemented, would not stand a chance).....paper qualifications mean absolutely nothing if the desire to care for people is not there.

Degree Education does not lead to better standards of care.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you found your true vocation and were good at your job. Even 7 years ago, you must admit you were in the minority, nowadays its even worse. Nurses think they are some kind of elite, deserving of respect and Florence Nightingale kudos without putting in the lamp time. Let me give an example I recently came across.

Anyone being admitted from any type of care home is expected to provide a care staff to give care to them because the nurses cant cope with care related matters, they have no idea of how to deal with dementia or incontinence, let alone autism or learning disabilities. These care staff have only NVQ's as a qualification and are looked down on by these nurses with their medical background and are offered no help at all whilst looking after their charges in hospital. Yet these carers have more training, more hands on care, more consideration for the people they look after, more stringent demands on continuous professional development and deal with far more issues in a single day than nurses deal with in a month. And these people are paid probably about a 1/3 as much as your average whiny nurse, and work more unsociable hours.

Guess who I want to care for me when I reach my dotage?

[Margaret Pilkington]

I like to think that I led by example, and that my nursing team knew what was expected of them....and that was to give care.
Also, at that time there were still a lot of nurses around who trained under the old scheme...which was a bit like an apprenticeship.
Now many of those nurses have retired, so the current nurses have had a different kind of training......and sadly most of them come into nursing for the wrong reasons.
They come into nursing to pay the mortgage(and I am not saying that nurses should not get a reasonable wage) rather than to make a difference to peoples lives.

ALL nurses on the wards work unsocial hours.....it comes with the territory.......and my suggestion would be to those who don't like it.....leave and do something else.
Patients will always need to be looked after.

[accyman]

why do we need nurses these days, my doctors receptionists seem pretty qualified to determin wether i need a doctor or not so why not sling them into the hospitals and put people into the doctors to do what they are supposed to do which is to answer the phone , make an appointment and under no circumstances ask the person whats wrong with them

we dont go to teh doctors for a fun day out , times are hard but as of yet sitting amongst other sick people hasnt yet become a day trip

oh and not havin whats up with you discussed within earshot of other patients as soon as your backs turned would be nice

[Margaret Pilkington]

Are the receptionists educated to degree level then?

seriously though, if you have evidence that your condition is being discussed by these people then you need to report it to the practice manager.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Bah! When was the last time any of you actually saw a 'real nurse' doing any nursing?

Those that do all the 'nursing' jobs like :- looking after patients (soon to be known as customers..I kid you not), changing beds, cleaning up bodily fluids, enemas, shaving, etc..etc..etc.. are not in fact qualified nurses..they are care assistants in all but name, and deserve recognition for their unrewarded work.

'Real nurses' are the ones stood at 'nurse stations' who stare at you, with vacant looks on their face, should you ask anything about the welfare of people on their wards. They are the ones that spout platitudes like 'I don't know which ward he's on now, I wasn't on shift when he moved' or 'I'm training here, I usually work in the <insert greek word here> department'. They are overpaid, underworked and spend most of their time bleating about car parking, unsociable hours and how hard done to they are.

Its these 'real nurses' that will be educated to degree level..and why not..they do beggar all else, they may as well jump on the 'advanced mustard application'(©Eric 2009) bandwagon

Well actually a fortnight ago Guinness, the nursing staff on ward B8 at the Royal were first class, Its obvious from what you say you haven't had any personal need for hospital treatment lately or you wouldn't slagging nurses of, maybe if you need their care anytime soon you'll find out just what a first class job the do

[jaysay]

Was reading in the paper this morning about these degree courses and the Journo came up with a very good byline "You don't learn compassion at university, think that says it all really

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well actually a fortnight ago Guinness, the nursing staff on ward B8 at the Royal were first class, Its obvious from what you say you haven't had any personal need for hospital treatment lately or you wouldn't slagging nurses of, maybe if you need their care anytime soon you'll find out just what a first class job the do

You're missing the point, I'm not knocking the quality of care put out by 'nursing staff' just the amount and quality of hands on care meted out by 'qualified nurses'.

You state 'nursing staff' on ward B8...how many of them were qualified nurses and how many were auxiliary/anciliary staff? Which of these spent the most time looking after your personal needs?

Your observation about me needing hospital treatment recently is incorrect. On top of which I have spent quite some time in various hospitals in East Lancashire over the past few years. And guess what...the non-nurses usually turn out to be more considerate, more caring and better at the job.

[Gayle]

I must admit, I read the report slightly differently.

I understood it to mean that nurses would start their nursing course, which would be a three year degree course involving some practical and some theoretical training.

I didn't read it to be that they could have any degree level education and then start their nursing training.

Perhaps, it was down to the way different papers interpreted the report.

[katex]

Originally Posted by Gayle

I must admit, I read the report slightly differently.

I understood it to mean that nurses would start their nursing course, which would be a three year degree course involving some practical and some theoretical training.

I didn't read it to be that they could have any degree level education and then start their nursing training.

Perhaps, it was down to the way different papers interpreted the report.

The discussion I heard on the Radio did say this Gayle; that it would be incorporated with practical nursing, and they were not going to lose sight of this.

[MargaretR]

Nurses appear to be doing tasks that were once only done by doctors.
This saves on costs of employing more doctors, but it leads to a 'class system' amongst nurses.
This means that more than one nurse is needed to care for a patient, and the 'upper class' wont do the 'lower class' duties.(demarcation)
For most of you, this system has always been so, but when the NHS originated there was only one type of nurse - an SRN, who did everything for that patients care.
The old system meant better personal care. Responsibility wasn't divided, so lapses in care couldn't be blamed on others.

[Margaret Pilkington]

There were State Enrolled Nurses as well Margaret......they were phased out a few years ago.....mainly by retirement and a lot of the former SEN's trained up to become SRN's

Yes, the report has become clearer, and it does appear that Nurses will train for degree status.......the training to be an SRN/RGN has always been 3years, but apparently the new training will concentrate more on the academic stuff and there will only be limited time spent on the wards.
I see this as being a poor way to teach a practical skill......practical skills need to be earned through practical experience........we are going to have people turned out who may be academically good, but have very limited practical skills.

Another thing is why do a degree in Nursing? If you are set to do a degree go and do something that is more lucrative.

The article you have read Jaysay, echoes my sentiments entirely.......I think that this writer must have access to my brain's hard drive.

[lettie]

I have to agree with Margaret P on all of her posts here. Nursing is very different now than it was when I trained in 1987, way before degree courses. Much of the ward work has now become admin, there's a piece of paper for everything these days, and most days are spent covering your back against litigation. Hospital insurance premiums are sky high, but can be reduced if you show that things are being done a certain way, hence a massive paper trail.

Reductions in junior doctors hours has meant that nurses and midwives now do some of their roles, cannulation, suturing, male catheterisations, venepuncture and many others. Those nurses who are trained in these skills are therefore taken away from looking after individual patients in favour of performing these tasks, ticking boxes on paper and filing it in the notes.

Most of my role now is admin and ward and crisis management. I still have my fair share of patients and they get brilliant care. I know this because of the lovely cards and feeback that I get from them. I did a Bsc (hons) part time whilst working full time. It was bloody hard work but I am proud to have my degree. I am also proud to have trained both in nursing and midwifery in the traditional way and learned loads of practical skills, skills which I now pass on to my degree students.

Unfortunately, without a degree, in most professions these days there is no hope of promotion. Only by earning a senior role can you have any hope of making a difference on your ward. A difference that I try to make every day and am proud to do so.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Guinness

You're missing the point, I'm not knocking the quality of care put out by 'nursing staff' just the amount and quality of hands on care meted out by 'qualified nurses'.

You state 'nursing staff' on ward B8...how many of them were qualified nurses and how many were auxiliary/ancillary staff? Which of these spent the most time looking after your personal needs?

Your observation about me needing hospital treatment recently is incorrect. On top of which I have spent quite some time in various hospitals in East Lancashire over the past few years. And guess what...the non-nurses usually turn out to be more considerate, more caring and better at the job.

There were usually two Auxiliary nurses on duty during the day that did the jobs they have always done making beds, bed pans, making brews, giving meals out at, the other 5 or 6 nurses did the medical tasks, I certainly didn't have any problems what so ever, except for one day when there was a miner glitch with medication