Did Graham Jones do the right thing?

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

As for leaving decisions to those who "know enough" about issues, why bother having a democracy at all? If the politicians know so much more than us, we may as well not bother with elections and just let them get on with it!

I thought that was pretty much what was happening anyway.

The country wouldn't be in this state if politicians had listened to the electorate about lots of issues that are still causing problems....the porous borders is one of them that no one has had the cojones to tackle.

The fiasco of the Human Rights issues is another one...where an illegal immigrant can mow down a child, but not be deported because of his right to a family life. What about the girls family...don't they have a right to a family life? Obviously not...criminals come first.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

So basically you just agree with whatever Graham Jones does through blind loyalty? I also don't see why disagreeing with him is "undermining" him. Surely the hallmark of a mature political relationship is being able to disagree about things at times?

As for leaving decisions to those who "know enough" about issues, why bother having a democracy at all? If the politicians know so much more than us, we may as well not bother with elections and just let them get on with it!

Agreed.

Knowing your own mind, and not meekly following the flock, shows you have balls.

Not some subservient little eunuch.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

However, the problem with any referendum is a lack of public information and this is where they start being a little bit dangerous. The wording needs to be right and I will cite the Scottish referendum as an example of one where the SNP's preferred question may be seen by some to be leading the answer. The full facts and ramifications need to be presented to the public in such as way that they know exactly what they are voting for or against.

At the moment I suspect a sizeable number of people would vote to withdraw from Europe tomorrow based on what they either know or think they know from the media but that is a long way from having the full facts, it is merely an edited version of the truth.

I don't know enough about Europe to discuss it properly so until that changes I will leave decisions to those who do.

This is exactly why I hate politicians with a passion....we are 'too thick', we are fooled by the media, we don't know our own minds. The only people we become 'dangerous' to are the politicians who fear the voice of the public.

Newsflash....politicians are thick too, they have banks of advisors who are all in it to feather their own nests and keep themselves in a job.

Please do NOT try to convince me that Graham Jones is some sort of finanacial oligarch with his finger on the pulse of international finance. he's a bloody politician who used to work in a factory.

As to the wording, most of us plebs want the question to be as simple as :- Do you want in? yes or no.

We don't want it muddying with semantics that will give rise to endless political debates which in turn will muddy the question even more.

As for your example of the Scottish referendum, the only people who thought that the question was a leading question were the politicians who were afraid of the answer.

I'll give my own example, Ireland...the euro politicians got the wrong answer and changed the question.

I have the full facts, I'm a grown up and I have a mind, or are you suggesting that ordinary voters are easily manipulated?

[maxthecollie]

Out of Europe! Sorry I have an MP to vote for me.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Guinness

I have the full facts, I'm a grown up and I have a mind, or are you suggesting that ordinary voters are easily manipulated?

Go on then, give me the full facts on pulling out of Europe.

As a Eurosceptic I'd really like to know the full implications.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

Go on then, give me the full facts on pulling out of Europe.

As a Eurosceptic I'd really like to know the full implications.

Ok..
a) for a start one of the main arguments is that jobs and exports are dependent on staying in, which is a lie.. we could still trade even if we were not a member, Switzerland and Norway are doing just fine thanks very much
b) neither Labour nor Tory government has done a cost based check on an in or out vote
c) we'd save a fortune on bureaucracy, hangers on and silly laws regarding cornish pasties or the length and girth of a banana
d) Brussels creates almost 3/4 of UK law, we have no autonomy as a country
e) You can have a trade agreement if you have something worthwhile to trade...look at Canada, USA and Mexico, without needing to relinquish sovereignty

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Ok..
a) for a start one of the main arguments is that jobs and exports are dependent on staying in, which is a lie.. we could still trade even if we were not a member, Switzerland and Norway are doing just fine thanks very much
b) neither Labour nor Tory government has done a cost based check on an in or out vote
c) we'd save a fortune on bureaucracy, hangers on and silly laws regarding cornish pasties or the length and girth of a banana
d) Brussels creates almost 3/4 of UK law, we have no autonomy as a country
e) You can have a trade agreement if you have something worthwhile to trade...look at Canada, USA and Mexico, without needing to relinquish sovereignty

Fine, with you so far.

Is that it though? Is that the whole story and are you quite sure of your facts?

In all honesty I want to see the full picture here.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

Go on then, give me the full facts on pulling out of Europe.

As a Eurosceptic I'd really like to know the full implications.

Don't you go worrying your prett...er, li'l head about it now.

Those who know best, the greatest political minds of our time...and printers, have decided that we really aren't the best people to have a say in our own destiny.

They've decided for us, and there'll be no referendum.

Little point you fretting unnecessarily about the whys, and wherefores now.

Jones know best.

Keep the faith.

[mobertol]

Originally Posted by Less

Would it be possible for you to repeat (in simple terms) what it was that was so convincing about Cllr Munsif Dad of Springhill ward's balanced overview of the situation there, that overwhelmed the Councillors to back Kashmir? After all, it did make our little area quite popular/unpopular with certain members of the press Worldwide.


Could I also ask, again, reluctantly, should our Council get involved with International Politics, when we can't keep our heads above water with local issues?

Well said , Less,
Don't be reluctant when you ask though. My mum grew up on Exchange St. went to Springhill school and the connection with Kashmir is apparent and obvious?!

[Guinness]

You know what else makes me laugh hysterically...my old man was a card carrying paid up member of the Labour party until the day he died, he thought Labour were for the ordinary guy in the street and tried to educate me into that way of thinking.

Yet half the current tories want out of Europe, but Labour were whipped in and helped swing the vote because of threats, and one of the whippers was our own MP, who was not in the house that day because I watched the whole sorry debacle on parliament TV

Why weren't you representing me Mr. Jones..why were you toeing the party line when you knew that the majority of your voters wanted out?

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Guinness

You know what else makes me laugh hysterically...my old man was a card carrying paid up member of the Labour party until the day he died, he thought Labour were for the ordinary guy in the street and tried to educate me into that way of thinking.

Yet half the current tories want out of Europe, but Labour were whipped in and helped swing the vote because of threats, and one of the whippers was our own MP, who was not in the house that day because I watched the whole sorry debacle on parliament TV

Why weren't you representing me Mr. Jones..why were you toeing the party line when you knew that the majority of your voters wanted out?

You haven't answered my question.

As someone who claims to know all the facts I want to hear more.

Please.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

Fine, with you so far.

Is that it though? Is that the whole story and are you quite sure of your facts?

In all honesty I want to see the full picture here.

Of course thats not it!

You caught me on the hop, unlike you before a council meeting, I don't have an agenda in front of me with a list of possible questions that I can prepare answers for.

I suggest you go do a little bit of research and educate yourself just like the rest of us plebs have to do

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Guinness

Of course thats not it!

You caught me on the hop, unlike you before a council meeting, I don't have an agenda in front of me with a list of possible questions that I can prepare answers for.

I suggest you go do a little bit of research and educate yourself just like the rest of us plebs have to do

Yet you claim to have all the facts on pulling out of Europe, hence my asking. I personally do not, so although the sceptic in me wants to pull out I don't feel that I know enough to categorically see the full implications.

Sorry, I thought you knew.

[Guinness]

When in doubt, pick on a single word in a fifty word argument.. meh! politicians..dont make me pull up some of your posts like the one where you say you aren't a sheep yet 3 posts later you say Mr Jones is the one you follow regardless of your personal leanings

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Guinness

When in doubt, pick on a single word in a fifty word argument.. meh! politicians..dont make me pull up some of your posts like the one where you say you aren't a sheep yet 3 posts later you say Mr Jones is the one you follow regardless of your personal leanings

I don't 'follow' him, I just trust him to make decent judgements on issues that he knows about. I don't know about the Europe situation anywhere near as well as he does and from hearing him talk he knows his stuff.

Why would I know about the EU inside out? I don't need to as yet.